Spartan Vortex info!

[AcidDrink]

Which

a) wasn't the subject, the use of cheap sensors vs expensive ones was.

And

b) isn't much use if you don't use futaba, and the features remain somewhat under developed compared to the likes of vbar.

CGY750 has very similar features to vbar minus vibration logging (no need, it will fly fine if you don't see the vibes) and electric governor (maybe a need). It's also tons easier to setup (not that vbar is rocket science, both can be setup under 10 minutes).

If Spartan brings a) good hard mounted vibration resistant sensor b) ability to set the unit up quick without using a laptop c) very good manual in plain English, I am in, it's going to be on my next heli.

Price is really irrelevant, FBL unit is crucial to how the heli flies and it's the case of getting exactly what you pay for.

[Gixxer]

These are very good sensors too, unfortunately not for RC. They are 5V which is a bit of a pain to produce internally in the FBL... you may be thinking that you give it 5V already but it's not the same. It needs to be an clean internally produced 5V. They don't have orthogonal mounting variants so they need to be soldered to individual PCBs and then solder these vertical to each other which is adds cost. And most importantly... the dynamic range is not good. A helicopter does not yaw much faster than 1200d/s and having 20000d/s range is absolutely no use. In fact it makes things worst as your sampling resolution becomes lower.

-Angelos

Yeah, sorry, I posted the wrong link. I was looking at a few different ones earlier and I lost the link I thought I saved.

[sparts]

Yes, these are very good sensors. One of the best options for a flybarless system at this time. However you have to look at the package overall. It can't connect to anything else than an SBUS receiver without extra dangling bits, there is just a single power feed for potentially 5 digital servos, you need to decipher the Futaba user guide and try talking to the designer if you get stuck for whatever reason.



These are very good sensors too, unfortunately not for RC. They are 5V which is a bit of a pain to produce internally in the FBL... you may be thinking that you give it 5V already but it's not the same. It needs to be an clean internally produced 5V. They don't have orthogonal mounting variants so they need to be soldered to individual PCBs and then solder these vertical to each other which is adds cost. And most importantly... the dynamic range is not good. A helicopter does not yaw much faster than 1200d/s and having 20000d/s range is absolutely no use. In fact it makes things worst as your sampling resolution becomes lower.

-Angelos

I love it when you talk sexy

[scallybert]

Price is really irrelevant, FBL unit is crucial to how the heli flies and it's the case of getting exactly what you pay for.

But it's not irrelevant, and this is the point Angelos made and got beaten up for...

If the market thinks it's ok to fit el cheapo sensors on a 90 size heli that is going to 3D in close proximity to people, it makes it much harder to sell a more expensive product that is genuinely fit for purpose.

[Having seen a number of helis fitted with 'a market leading low cost FBL controller' topple/roll/etc due to vibe issues, I think FBL controllers need to be better than that - especially on larger helis.]

So, while I agree with you that the FBL is cucial, and you need a good one; the market seems overly price-sensitve, which is probably not helped by (arguably) underspecced products.

[scallybert]

I'll also add, that doing some arithmetic based on US & UK prices [(UK 720/US 720) * US 540] , the Skookum SK-540 ought to come in at £211 (IIRC).

This is reportedly a high-spec unit, good vibe resistance, effectively the 720 minus accelerometers (but 6 gyros for vibe resistance).

[And the SK fan-boys reckon SK out-flies the V-B... ]

[Angelos]

A certain lipo maker had their posts removed pronto for knocking another product that just happens to be plastered everywhere over here,where's the continuity?

Nobody is knocking the vbar. My comments in regards to the el-cheapo Invensense sensors. After all this is a Vortex VX1 thread and I think I have every right to chip in and explain what makes it better.

My comments for "el-cheapo" vs better sensors are very substantiated and I have spent endless hours evaluating different options. When it comes to gyro sensors you get what you pay for and you will be very hard pressed to find any issues with the sensor choices I made in the past: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=sp...sensor+failure

Repeat search for your favourite brand!

-Angelos

[NEAGRON]

At the end of the day,its our choice as to what we purchase,and yes price may come into it,but most people just follow the flock,which is not the cheapest,just my thought's,yours,Marty.

[mark_w]

What is all the fuss about!!

Angelos has come on here to answer questions and when he gives an honest opinion (IMO not knocking another brand but pointing out facts in his opinion, and the way I read it he is glad that they are going back to better sensors) and he gets slated.

[Andy from Sandy]

What is all the fuss about!!

Angelos has come on here to answer questions and when he gives an honest opinion (IMO not knocking another brand but pointing out facts in his opinion, and the way I read it he is glad that they are going back to better sensors) and he gets slated.

You are a bit late to the party and there is no fuss.

I would be very pleased to see Mikado using decent sensors, if nothing else it would result to a similar production cost for them as for us thus balancing out the price competitiveness. The hardware quality of flybarless systems has been going downhill since BeastX started using the el-cheapo Invensense sensors and Mikado blindly followed.

Now whichever way you read this and whether it was meant or not it speaks about a product that will have a high price and a possible difficulty justifying its cost when stood against the Mikado v-bar at its current price. There is a hope that the new Mikado unit will cost more to make and that cost will be passed on to the end user i.e. a higher sales price.

Now the Mikado unit today maybe using el-cheapo sensors but Mikado seem to have done a pretty good job of making it work rather well. If the new Vortex unit performs better than the current v-bar and the new v-bar unit should perform better than the current version then we the customer will be vey spoilt for choice.

[jamiem]

What is all the fuss about!!

Angelos has come on here to answer questions and when he gives an honest opinion (IMO not knocking another brand but pointing out facts in his opinion, and the way I read it he is glad that they are going back to better sensors) and he gets slated.

When a trader comes on here and calls the competition "el-cheapo", he is using a derogatory term and is slating them for it, and therefore may receive the same in return!

Andy just made a very good point though; if Mikado can make a top line product out of these "el-cheapo" sensors, Spartan has a lot to live up to If they can better it for a similar price, then all the better for everyone!

[Stuart]

Now the Mikado unit today maybe using el-cheapo sensors but Mikado seem to have done a pretty good job of making it work rather well. If the new Vortex unit performs better than the current v-bar and the new v-bar unit should perform better than the current version then we the customer will be vey spoilt for choice.

You have to remember whilst Mikado and Beastx maybe using the same seemingly cheaper sensor they apply them in different formats when comparing the full sized vbar to the beastx. From what I've read on here there have been more people suffering from vibration driven issues on the beastx than vbar. I suspect this is main down to the way the vbar full version splits off the sensor there not under the same potential vibration weaknesses of having so many wires plugged into one unit like the beastx.

So whilst I understand where your coming from and please note - I'm a vbar user and have been since the day I went FBL. I'm interested to see how the Vortex compares when its released but also I've got a GT5 coming to have a play with so that too will be interesting. Personally I think its all good for us the end user at the end of the day the choices gets bigger and bigger.

You can have what you want and hopefully fit the budget your looking for too - look at the tarot system for peanuts but at the end of the day you get what you pay for in my eye's. Horses for courses....

[Andy from Sandy]

You have to remember whilst Mikado and Beastx maybe using the same seemingly cheaper sensor they apply them in different formats when comparing the full sized vbar to the beastx. From what I've read on here there have been more people suffering from vibration driven issues on the beastx than vbar. I suspect this is main down to the way the vbar full version splits off the sensor there not under the same potential vibration weaknesses of having so many wires plugged into one unit like the beastx.

I have a mini v-bar on a logo 500 and a t-rex 500. Apparently the smaller the model the higher the vibration usually is. According to the vibration analyser the logo is at 92 and the t-rex has a max figure of 134. I have the units stuck solid to the models so the wires have no chance of moving it.

[Stuart]

Which is why as I said that I suspect its more to do with how the sensors use within the whole package, most I suspect are not thinking of issues concerning induced vibrations from wires feeding into the main unit. Especially if they've come a traditional gyro setup to FBL. In my eye's it more to do with newbies just expecting to plug and play and in some cases you can get away with it but some of the more well oiled flyers have had years of experience in finding vibrations and debugging machines if you like.

This is why I suspect the likes of the full sized vbar / Futaba and other seperate sensor FBL setups are in my view less prone to vibration issues - that's not to day they dont get any just less of an issue.

At the end of the day when we goto the field to fly all we want to do is have a good days flying and enjoy the day and not get caught up too much in having to spent time trying to get rid of a wag or whipping tails etc. As said I look forward to seeing more information as and when its possible but I have every confidence that it will be worth keeping an eye out for....

[Andy from Sandy]

Some people have posted on HF that they have a vibration figure over 1000 with their el-cheapo sensor and they report that their model flies fine with no hint showing up in the tail. How much better vibration rejection do we actually need?

(If I can find the actual post I will put the link here)

[raptorheli2]

the actual number does not matter one iota, you need to understand what that means to understand if you have a problem.

cheers