BMFA , Flybarless and "B" tests ?

[pchristy]

Of course, what we really need is for someone to come up with a working version of the Lockheed mechanical stabiliser! That would blow all the current systems (mechanical or electronic) out of the water!

And if Lockheed could produce a working RC model helicopter in the 1950s using a McCoy 61 for power, and a "bang-bang" (non-proportional) radio, why can't we do it now?

(Hurries off down to shed....)

[Nutter]

Now that is the million dollar question, but do you really expect me to answer that one?

I should point out though, It is not my personal criteria, but the criteria of the BMFA. I merely follow my interpretation of the that criteria!



Richard

As Mark_T says. What FBL systems would you allow in a B Test? And as a reviewer, I expect you've flown quite a few.


If the helicopter does not have a fly bar fitted it is acceptable to use extra electronic
stabilisation, however the extra electronic stabilisation must only be acting as a fly bar
replacement system and must not take over control from the pilot or achieve automated
flight.

I interpret the above to mean a FBL system like a 3G, VBar, CGY-750 etc. but exclude Heli Command systems. If you interpret differently that what do you mean?

I feel that there must be some consistency in the examining of the B test from examiner to examiner across the country, much like a driving test. Surely one examiner accepting FBL systems and another not accepting them is totally unacceptable and consistency should be encouraged.

[Rainman]

Yes I do.

This isn't some game of semantics, you are an Examiner representing the BMFA and it is both reasonable and logical given your apparent stance on this issue to expect a straight answer to a straight question.

Why wouldn't you want people to know in advance what they should be practicing with if they plan to ask you to examine them?

Straight answer to a straight question.........The fact that you see me as examiner representing the BMFA is the exact reason why I would not answer that question, just as I would not expect the BMFA to produce a list of 'approved' flybarless systems.

Not the answer you wanted, but the only one I personally am prepared to give!



Richard

[Nutter]

I think that means Richard, if you won't give an answer as to what available FBL systems you would accept, then you would not allow any FBL heli to be used to take the B test?

[rachel]

Hey Laurence I just realised you have an automatic licence too, can you reverse park ???
:-)Rachel

[Tim Procter]

Two pieces of Stainburn flapjack in Richards hands, You will get a pass choose what heli you are flying.







That was a joke for those without a sense of humour.

[Nutter]

Two pieces of Stainburn flapjack in Richards hands, You will get a pass choose what heli you are flying.







That was a joke for those without a sense of humour.

What? Even with a Futaba transmitter and Futaba FBL system? I think not!!!

[waveydavey]

Straight answer to a straight question.........The fact that you see me as examiner representing the BMFA is the exact reason why I would not answer that question, just as I would not expect the BMFA to produce a list of 'approved' flybarless systems.

Not the answer you wanted, but the only one I personally am prepared to give!



Richard

Then what was the point in that case of the BMFA paying lip service to the use of electronic as opposed to mechanical flybar. We all interpret the words above by the BMFA in the same way, why don't BMFA examiners such as yourself interpret it the same

[Rotorhead]

I think that means Richard, if you won't give an answer as to what available FBL systems you would accept, then you would not allow any FBL heli to be used to take the B test?

That's how it's looking to me aswell, and Richard the whole issue suggests you don't really understand what a pure flybarless system is doing and are lumping them in with auto-pilot/recovery systems.

I think that given that the BMFA's official position is that pure flybarless systems are ok then as an appointed official you should follow that position.

[LaurenceGough]

Hey Laurence I just realised you have an automatic licence too, can you reverse park ???
:-)Rachel

Haha .

To be honest I would much rather have done my B test with a flybarred heli, but alas only my 450 has a flybar .

[Rainman]

As Mark_T says. What FBL systems would you allow in a B Test? And as a reviewer, I expect you've flown quite a few.


If the helicopter does not have a fly bar fitted it is acceptable to use extra electronic
stabilisation, however the extra electronic stabilisation must only be acting as a fly bar
replacement system and must not take over control from the pilot or achieve automated
flight.

I interpret the above to mean a FBL system like a 3G, VBar, CGY-750 etc. but exclude Heli Command systems. If you interpret differently that what do you mean?

I feel that there must be some consistency in the examining of the B test from examiner to examiner across the country, much like a driving test. Surely one examiner accepting FBL systems and another not accepting them is totally unacceptable and consistency should be encouraged.

Hi Paul

I have already replied to Mark_T's post, I will not name any flybarless system that I beleive meet the criteria and I have given my reason why and yes I have tried many flybarless systems and on many versions of the software. You are entitled to your interpretaion of the guideline notes, just as I am and so is everyone else. I have already detailed what I would be looking at if/when I get asked to take a candidate for a test. If the system meets my interpretations of the guidelines, then I will allow it.

Consistancy........I have spent years trying to get consistancy from examiners irrespective of the flybarless debate. It is an idea that we should always aim for, but be mindful that it would be very difficult to achieve!




Richard

[Nutter]

Hi Paul

I have already replied to Mark_T's post, I will not name any flybarless system that I beleive meet the criteria and I have given my reason why and yes I have tried many flybarless systems and on many versions of the software. You are entitled to your interpretaion of the guideline notes, just as I am and so is everyone else. I have already detailed what I would be looking at if/when I get asked to take a candidate for a test. If the system meets my interpretations of the guidelines, then I will allow it.

Consistancy........I have spent years trying to get consistancy from examiners irrespective of the flybarless debate. It is an idea that we should always aim for, but be mindful that it would be very difficult to achieve!




Richard

I quite understand Richard that you are interpreting the BMFA guidelines differently to most people posting on this thread, but I see it quite clearly. I think what you're saying is, at the moment, you would not allow any pilot to take his B test with a FBL system? Yes or No?

[Spanner]

Straight answer to a straight question.........The fact that you see me as examiner representing the BMFA is the exact reason why I would not answer that question, just as I would not expect the BMFA to produce a list of 'approved' flybarless systems.

Not the answer you wanted, but the only one I personally am prepared to give!



Richard

I don't understand the answer!!

[Baldie]

This was always going to be a can of worms, and the only surprise is that it has taken so long to rear its ugly head!

Many of the people on this forum are very familiar with flybar-less systems and are aware of the capabilities of each. But beware of assuming that everyone - even examiners - have such in-depth knowledge.

The BMFA and (I believe) most examiners are not anti-fbl per se. But they are aware that it is much easier to "cheat" with such a system than with a purely mechanical set-up. And it is very difficult to demonstrate that any system has no "self-righting" capabilities. Even if you do overcome this, how do you prove that such a capability cannot be re-introduced at the flick of a switch? And with new systems coming on the market all the time, how do you seriously expect the examiners to keep track of all the different variations? A real can of worms!

But the question you should be asking is "why does this matter?", because it probably doesn't! The BMFA are very emphatic that the "A" and "B" certificates are there purely as a measure of personal achievement, and are not intended to indicate any particular level of ability. If you stick to this strict definition of the tests - and the BMFA and Achievement Scheme bods have repeated it on the record over and over again - then the argument become irrelevant.

It only matters if you are using the tests to indicate the level of ability for a particular purpose. And this is precisely what the BMFA does NOT endorse. If you do it, its you or your club's decision, and not the BMFAs!

I know, I know, I've had this argument with them time and time again, and I certainly wouldn't want to be in their shoes if - God forbid - there is a serious accident, and the CAA get involved. But that is the BMFAs position, as has been stated repeatedly over the years.

And I wish it weren't!

This Statement confuses me, Why is usually stipulated that a "B" is required to compete or an "A" to fly alone at a club? (even if this is the clubs choice)

Would the BMFA insurance cover me for example (I have neither) if I was flying solo at a PUBLIC event, My model developed a fault that caused it to injure a member of the public observing ? If so why have the tests at all?

Slightly off the topic I know But if the statement above it true, Then If the model cannot take off or land itself or take control over the heli AGAINST the pilots wishes then the pilot is always in control and therefore the type of fbl unit is irrelevant.

Do full size aircraft not use auto pilots ?

[nitromad]

well after reading the reply from rainman im not even going bother with any tests too dam hit and miss