BMFA , Flybarless and "B" tests ?

HI all I just popped this up as I have recently been in discussions with our club examiner ref B tests and Flybarless.

I have added Richard Budd's name to the title as I regard him as an expert :-)
So what I am being told is FBL can no longer be used for a "B" test as the candidate has to prove the system acts as a flybar (or somthing like that)
This can be hard / impossable .
so BMFA dudes and Dudettes whats the up to date gen on taking your test with FBL ????

Thanks in advance
Rachel

[steve_b]

I thought the BMFA allowed FBL for the tests now, what you have to prove is that it won't fly the heli i.e. helicommand, but TotalG, Vbar, 3G etc were allowed as they're FB replacements.

This is the problem though that the BMFA won't publish an approved list of FBL controllers, so it's up to each examiner as to whether they will let you take the test. Looks like I'll have to dust off the 450 as it's the only FB heli I own now.

[Mark_T]

The details are here: http://www.bmfa.org/achievement/files/Hel-B-2011.pdf

Specifically:

Where a fly bar is fitted, it is acceptable to use an electro-mechanical or solid state gyro in a
helicopter being used to take the test although electronic stabilisation is restricted to a single
sensor acting in rotation around the yaw axis only. This allows a range of gyros to be fitted,
from simple yaw dampers to solid state heading lock units but only acting on the tail rotor.
If the helicopter does not have a fly bar fitted it is acceptable to use extra electronic
stabilisation, however the extra electronic stabilisation must only be acting as a fly bar
replacement system and must not take over control from the pilot or achieve automated
flight.

The use of any autopilot and/or artificial stability features which are (or may be) designed
into such units beyond definition above is not acceptable during the test and is not allowed.

Candidates should be prepared to explain the capabilities of the system they are using and
show that it does not take over control from the pilot and that automated flight will not be
achieved during the test.

The RCAS Helicopter ‘B’ Certificate 3 2011 Issue

I don't think there is any doubt about the intentions of the BMFA in this regard, but it does seem that some examiners are not following the spirit of the intention.

Devices capable of self-righting, auto-hovering or GPS navigation would not be permitted.

Replacements for the fly-bar such as a 3G/3GX/BeastX/VBar etc. should all be perfectly 'legal' for an A or B test.

[Nutter]

I was speaking to Richard Budd last weekend about this subject and a guy at the Bury club (John) was not allowed to take his B test with a V-Barred heli as Richard felt that this was a huge stabilisation aid. John went out and bought a FB heli to take his test!

You could argue that a FB is a stabilisation aid (mechanical) as apposed to FBL (electronic). My personal opinion is that the B test should be allowed to be taken with a FBL heli as long as it's not a Heli Command type FBL system.

[thumb_rocker]

Hi Rachel,

I'm up to be a examiner soon & as far as my current knowledge serves you can use a flybarless heli for the A or B cert as long as the unit does not have a self righting feature such as the Helicommand or Skookum. If the examiner is not up to date with that controller in question then he or she may ask you to demonstrate that the unit will not self right it self. I would assume examiners to be upto date with what flybarless controllers can & cannot be used.

We have this situation over at my club with most heli guys moving over to flybarless helis wanting to do both A & B certs where I will be examining soon.

I also understand that the current BMFA handbook will be updated or an amendment will be released.

Personally I don't think it's a problem as long as Pilot demonstrates the correct inputs for good control & is safe.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

T

[Mark_T]

I was speaking to Richard Budd last weekend about this subject and a guy at the Bury club (John) was not allowed to take his B test with a V-Barred heli as Richard felt that this was a huge stabilisation aid. John went out and bought a FB heli to take his test!

I don't know Richard, so this is not a personal comment, but this is not something that is open to the personal likes or dislikes of the examiner.

The VBar is not capable of any of the features the BMFA list for a non-compliant device, Examiners should not be turning away people with compliant equipment.

I would encourage people faced with this problem to refer the matter back to the BMFA, we can't have a situation where an Examiner who may not like the change to allow FBL devices is turning away people who are trying to take a test using equipment that meets the BMFA requirements.

[Mark_T]

I also understand that the current BMFA handbook will be updated or an amendment will be released.

The guidelines have already been updated as per the link above.

[raptormark]

The BMFA HELICOPTER ACHIEVEMENT and Gyros and Electronic StabilizationWith the introduction of flybarless rotor systems and the electronic stabilization that usually goes with them, Areas Council decided in September 2010 to expand the section on the use of Gyros in the Helicopter tests to cover the latest situation.The wording in the ‘A’ and ‘B’ Helicopter Standards booklet is now as follows.

Gyros and Electronic Stabilization

Where a fly bar is fitted, it is acceptable to use an electromechanical or solid state gyro in a helicopter being used to take the test although electronic stabilization is restricted to a single sensor acting in rotation around the yaw axis only. This allows a range of gyros to be fitted, from simple yaw dampers to solid state heading lock units but only acting on the tail rotor. If the helicopter does not have a fly bar fitted it is acceptable to use extra electronic stabilization, however the extra electronic stabilization must only be acting as a fly bar replacement system and must not take over control from the pilot or achieve automated flight.The use of any autopilot and/or artificial stability features which are (or may be) designed into such units beyond definition above is not acceptable during the test and is not allowed.Candidates should be prepared to explain the capabilities of the system they are using and show that it does not take over control from the pilot and that automated flight will not be achieved during the test.

This is now the official definition of what stabilization is allowed in the tests and it covers the vast majority of gyros and stabilization systems currently available.The development of electronic systems is advancing continuously and it is quite likely that further modes of stabilization will be available in the future. Areas Council accepted and welcomed any such developments but in agreeing the wording above, it has made it clear what the limits are for using artificial stabilization in the tests.Please note that any wording that occurs in any section of the Helicopter tests which does not comply with the above will be altered during 2011.Chris Bromley, FSMAE
BMFA Technical Secretary

[debrooker]

and show that it does not take over control from the pilot and that automated flight will not be achieved during the test.

as an aside how does one show this, letting go of the sticks mid flight? surely that would be a fail

[Nutter]

I don't know Richard, so this is not a personal comment, but this is not something that is open to the personal likes or dislikes of the examiner.

The VBar is not capable of any of the features the BMFA list for a non-compliant device, Examiners should not be turning away people with compliant equipment.

I would encourage people faced with this problem to refer the matter back to the BMFA, we can't have a situation where an Examiner who may not like the change to allow FBL devices is turning away people who are trying to take a test using equipment that meets the BMFA requirements.

I completely agree Mark!

[barryorbik]

We had two BMFA chief examiners for helicopters at our club recently demonstrating the A and B test requirements for the benefit of our club assessors (as they are mainly fixed wing) and although the clause in the BMFA booklet was discussed they both stipulated that they would only undertake A and B tests tests with flybarred based helicopters. It appears therefore that even the chief BMFA examiners are unaware of the revised rules or are confused by this issue.

[thumb_rocker]

If I saw a FBL unit that I was not familiar with I would ask for a demonstration flight (if the examinee is comfortable to do so) prior to a test or even do some research to find out if that unit has a self righting feature & how it is activated. My current approach to this is, I will be asking all potential examinees about their helis & its setup including what FBL unit is being used. This gives me a chance to do any research if required about a FBL unit i'm not familiar with prior to a test.

I think this would be a good approach for all the Heli examiners.

[rachel]

I passed my "B" Test with a Total G fbl so the way i understand this is I can only fly "automatic " helicopters at a public display and I am banned from reverse parking .

Rachel

[Mark_T]

If I saw a FBL unit that I was not familiar with I would ask for a demonstration flight (if the examinee is comfortable to do so) prior to a test or even do some research to find out if that unit has a self righting feature & how it is activated. My current approach to this is, I will be asking all potential examinees about their helis & its setup including what FBL unit is being used. This gives me a chance to do any research if required about a FBL unit i'm not familiar with prior to a test.

Seems perfectly sensible and in line with the published requirements.

I don't want to appear to be unreasonable here as I can see there are going to be cases where an Examiner feels they cannot adequately determine if a unit that has non-compliant features is being flown with those features turned off and I wouldn't object if they felt unable to perform a test with someone in such a case.

A blanket 'no FBL' statement is entirely out of order though as the BMFA has already made that decision.

Looks like something worth pushing back up the line through the AHA I guess and by sheer good fortune the AGM is this Sunday

[Backdraft]

I'm sure Richard will come on here and give his reasons for not allowing FBL for his tests (Vbar), and hopefully clarify the BMFA wording.