BMFA , Flybarless and "B" tests ?

[Mark_T]

I'm sure Richard will come on here and give his reasons for not allowing FBL for his tests

It would be helpful for any Examiner, not just Richard, who is not allowing FBL to be used to help us understand why they are not following the published standards for the tests.

[jamiem]

I think it's worth pointing out that a well setup flybar would fly virtually the same as a flybarless machine, so I'm not sure why certain examiners are interpreting the guidelines any differently.

The way I see it (and have put in to practice as an examiner), is that a fbl Heli is fine, as long as it has no "self righting" mechanism enabled, and no position hold (I.e. through the use of gps or accellerometers). V-Bar, BeastX, 3G, 3GX should all be fine IMO, and as long as its demonstratable that they have no self righting enabled, a skookum SK720 or similar could be used. To demonstrate it is not self righting, I would ask the candidate to show me it won't self right or position hold, BEFORE the test began.

To rule out all FBL Heli's when clearly this is not what the guidelines are saying is just plain wrong. If this is what the BMFA wanted, they wouldn't have released an addendum that has already been posted above, and instead it would say something along the lines of "no artificial flybar stabilisation, only mechanical flybars and unstabilised flybarless machines allowed".

I have taken tests with candidates using fbl machines, and from memory even the test form asks what system was used in the model description box. If it were a problem, the BMFA would have rejected the tests I've submitted.

[Nutter]

I'm sure Richard will come on here and give his reasons for not allowing FBL for his tests (Vbar), and hopefully clarify the BMFA wording.

There were a few of us discussing with Richard about this last weekend as I've said, and everybody (including Rob Turnbull) was very surprised that Richard did not allowJohn to take the B test with his V-Barred heli. But Richard must have his reasons and it will be useful if he can clarify the situation as to why he refused while the BMFA guidelines clearly state that a FBL heli can be used for the test if the right system is installed on the heli.

[Lynx.1677]

I know little about BMFA and the tests so apologies if I offend anyone.

From reading that article I cannot see any reason for an examiner to refuse to allow a pilot to take their test using a non self righting FBL heli. I think if BMFA have a Chief examiner then he needs to be having a word with the examiners that seem to be the issue. It could just be a communications issue but I don't understand why examiners are not upto speed with the rules?

[rachel]

I agree with Jamie, a F3C heli is actually more stable than your average FBL heli just not as agile.

I think it's worth pointing out that a well setup flybar would fly virtually the same as a flybarless machine, so I'm not sure why certain examiners are interpreting the guidelines any differently.

The way I see it (and have put in to practice as an examiner), is that a fbl Heli is fine, as long as it has no "self righting" mechanism enabled, and no position hold (I.e. through the use of gps or accellerometers). V-Bar, BeastX, 3G, 3GX should all be fine IMO, and as long as its demonstratable that they have no self righting enabled, a skookum SK720 or similar could be used. To demonstrate it is not self righting, I would ask the candidate to show me it won't self right or position hold, BEFORE the test began.

To rule out all FBL Heli's when clearly this is not what the guidelines are saying is just plain wrong. If this is what the BMFA wanted, they wouldn't have released an addendum that has already been posted above, and instead it would say something along the lines of "no artificial flybar stabilisation, only mechanical flybars and unstabilised flybarless machines allowed".

I have taken tests with candidates using fbl machines, and from memory even the test form asks what system was used in the model description box. If it were a problem, the BMFA would have rejected the tests I've submitted.

[Backdraft]

Richard Budd "is" a chief examiner.

[Stuart]

Bottom line in my eyes any achievement scheme is simply a snapshot of a persons ability to fly and achieve some recognition for this. The A should be solely focused on safety and the B should be about that next step i.e. Sports flyer.

No FBL system will hide a persons inability to fly or in my view enhance a persons skills sufficiently that as an examiner your unable to tell whos flying.

Regardless of bailout systems they are not mini 3d gurus in a box they only output what is put in.

Nothing more than tail gyros on the head. For someone to have to buy another heli to take a 10min test is just out of order.

[Mark_T]

Nothing more than tail gyros on the head. For someone to have to buy another heli to take a 10min test is just out of order.

I don't imagine the BMFA would disagree either which is one of the reasons for the change to allow FBL.

I would hope Richard might feel motivated to help us understand his stance, but if not then I'd suggest those directly affected should refer this back to the BMFA to help others in the future avoid the same mistreatment.

[rachel]

I just want to make it clear thet I have a huge amount of respect for Richard Budd and any examiner that freely give their time to carry out the tests usually at inconvenience to themselves.

I only mentioned Richard as I knew he is a chief examiner and I was NOT aware of the weekends Test at all.

My purpose of this thread is / was not to bash the BMFA, its examiners, or have it become a war of words (not that it is) but after talknig to my club examiner I felt a point needed to be clarified.


:-) Rachel

I don't imagine the BMFA would disagree either which is one of the reasons for the change to allow FBL.

I would hope Richard might feel motivated to help us understand his stance, but if not then I'd suggest those directly affected should refer this back to the BMFA to help others in the future avoid the same mistreatment.

[Nutter]

I only mentioned Richard as I knew he is a chief examiner and I was NOT aware of the weekends Test at all.

Sorry Rachel.

Just to clarify. If you read my original post, I was speaking to Richard last weekend. He didn't do the test last weekend for John, but a few weeks ago.

Cheers!

[AcidDrink]

Regardless of bailout systems they are not mini 3d gurus in a box

No?

You just ruined my day

For me it's a bit silly that they don't recognize that there is a new technology out there which is taking over.

[Stuart]

No?

You just ruined my day

For me it's a bit silly that they don't recognize that there is a new technology out there which is taking over.

lol yeh I had hoped for some mini miracle 3d guru in the box and all those magical moves would just flow from my fingertips when I bought my vbar - but allas I'm still pants at flying - lol

[rachel]

I have removed Richards name from the title as I felt it could be taken the wrong way
Sorry to Richard if this has caused any problems.
:-(
Rachel

[Rainman]

At work at the moment. Will reply in full when (if) I ever get home!!

Cheers

Richard

[moyesboy]

Richard took me for my B test just over a year ago (it was even reported in one of the mags!), and in our conversations it was clear he was quite anti-FBL systems as regards the B test - however as a BHPA examiner he should be aware exactly of what is allowed and what is not allowed.

I have the greatest respect for any examiners that are prepared to give up their own time to supervise these tests, but those being tested have also invested time and effort and often travelled to take those tests so it is essential that the examiners apply the same rules.

Surely to anyone who knows how to fly a heli it would be quite obvious if a self righting system was at work, and nobody is going to pass a B test if they can get so out of kilter that it has to "save" the model.

At the time I was talking to Richard I had never flown a flybarless machine so could not argue with his opinions about how much easier various B test manoevres might be with a flybarless system. Now that I have flown both systems I would say some of what he said at the time didn't make much sense. A flybarless heli will not hover on the spot without correction and will not fly the 45 degree descent spot on with no control input.

If you spend some time setting up your flybarred heli for the B test then it will be just as easy to fly the manoevres accurately with that as with a FBL heli. The differece is that you can fly good B test manoevres with a FBL heli and also fly agressive 3D with almost no changes to the setup. For that reason I'd advise everyone to get a FBL so you aren't swapping paddles and stuff just to do your B test practice!

The difference really is negligable if there is no wind or turbulence. The FBL heli will need fewer corrections in rough and gusty conditions. I often see people saying how brave someone was to attempt the B test "in such poor conditions" but the examiner is supposed to take the conditions into account so it shouldn't matter. This is actually a plus point for FBL as the examiner wont need to make so much allowance.

Whatever controller you have on the heli you do need to practice the manoevres and get some advice on how big to make them and how fast to fly, becuase that is quite difficult to define. In my opinion once you make the effort to practice the manoevres and fly them with some repeatability, and make sure you learn the safety procedures then the test has done its job.

What I would like to see is a more lively test as an alternative so you don't need to do such boring practice flying in a style that is not part of what most of us want to do and wouldn't require adjustments to the models normal setup. However I see that would be a lot more difficult to judge.

When we have a grass roots competition (where the competitors do not need a B), how about the judges (some of whom are surely examiners) being able to award a B test pass to competitors based on their competition flights rather than the official B test? That might open the door a bit into competitions, add a little incentive to enter grass roots. Surely few could argue that the grass roots set manoevre list is as good a test as the B manoevres when marked by judges who know their stuff? All that would be missing is some theory/safety questions thast would need to be added at the end for those that were up for a B cert award.