B test schedule

[Rotorhead]

I disagree, the A test is simply used by most clubs to judge whether a pilot can safely control his / her model. It is done to such a level that it will prove to the club that the user can safely execute some basic manouevres. Quite often an A test candidate cannot circuit at the stage when he / she is safe to fly 'solo'.

IMO the A test is below the standard that I think its reasonable to say "this pilot can safely control his/her model"

It wouldn't be hard to get a situation where a pilot has passed the current A, and the rest of the club will think ok, and leave him to fly on his own, and the second that that pilot decides to learn nose in its no longer a situation where its reasonable to assume they can fly safely, thats why I think that hovering in all four right way up orientations needs to be part of it, because it wouldnt take much for a pilot with an A to lose it and it ends up in the pits.

Until they can fly in all orientations right way up they need an eye keeping on them IMO

[Rainman]

I know I come from the old school of flying (although I am not that old!) but I was flying aerobatics and doing autos before I learnt nose in. I don't think personally that nose in should be part of the A cert.

Richard

[Rotorhead]

I know I come from the old school of flying (although I am not that old!) but I was flying aerobatics and doing autos before I learnt nose in. I don't think personally that nose in should be part of the A cert.

Richard

Then to be honest you leap frogged a very important stage, and it should be discouraged because of the danger that it intorduces, eg getting into an unfamiliar orientation and not being able to get out of it, finding yourself nose in without having learned it in a controlled manor.

I try to teach up to nose in and circuits before I stop teaching someone, and it seems the proper point to set back.

Me, personally I learned all my orientations before even considering stall turns let alone full on aerobatics.

[Gaza07]

Cheers, that is all it boils down to at the end - "Do I have confidence in the candidates skills". Not "Can this pilot complete this test to the standards of the British F3C team".

Trev

Exactly im sure some examiners forget when they did there A test and seem to think they are perfect and that you should be to, If we could all fly perfect we would all have gold cups on the shelf,
Its easy to say you should do this or that to get your A or B once you have had them for a while and have advanced well passed the level needed to pass them,
I think a lot of experianced pilots can get quite complaicent about the test long after they have taken them, They are quite difficult for us learners and once we have acheived them then i feel we are skilled enough to carry on the learning process without some one stood on our shoulder

[Rainman]

Then to be honest you leap frogged a very important stage, and it should be discouraged because of the danger that it intorduces, eg getting into an unfamiliar orientation and not being able to get out of it, finding yourself nose in without having learned it in a controlled manor.

I try to teach up to nose in and circuits before I stop teaching someone, and it seems the proper point to set back.

Me, personally I learned all my orientations before even considering stall turns let alone full on aerobatics.

At the time I was doing this, only a handful of pilots in the country were flying nose-in and there were no instructors in my area . When I teach now, nose in training starts when the A test manouvers are mastered, but is not manditory as not all pilots ever want to progress past the tail in hover. It may come as a surprise to some, but some flyers have no interest in 3D, Aerobatics or even circiuts

Richard

[trvo]

It wouldn't be hard to get a situation where a pilot has passed the current A, and the rest of the club will think ok, and leave him to fly on his own, and the second that that pilot decides to learn nose in its no longer a situation where its reasonable to assume they can fly safely, thats why I think that hovering in all four right way up orientations needs to be part of it, because it wouldnt take much for a pilot with an A to lose it and it ends up in the pits.

Until they can fly in all orientations right way up they need an eye keeping on them IMO

When do you stop? Any new unfamiliar manouevre is dangerous...

Trev

[Rotorhead]

When do you stop?

Answered in the post, when they show that they have mastered nose in and side in and I have seen them start to get the hang of flying circuits.

That to me is a basic level that shows an acceptable level of competance where they dont need anyone to be there stood next to them all the time IMO

The point I am trying to make is that the nose in hover and sideways hover should nowadays be part of the A, not beyond it.

[HuskyD]

gunna be doing my A test on sunday...i'll tell u how i get on!

interesting read tho!
cheers,

Very best of luck.
As others have said you're only showing you have the ability to control your heli.

[trvo]

There are people at my club (hayling) that have never ventured into circuits, they're happy where they are. I have 100% confidence in their flying but they have not mastered circuits - just because they can do something doesn't make them safe. The A test demonstrates control of the model in all basic orientations, if they wish to progress further then so be it, but I wouldn't call it unsafe if the flier cannot do a circuit.

Trev

[Ashley Davis]

The A test is fine like it is, nose in is not required.

The point is to show a basic level of ability and that you can fly safely.....the fact that you can and go try harder stuff is besides the point. If you can take off, do lazy eights and land then why should you suddenly crash into your fellow pilots just because you haven't mastered nose-in yet? I would argue that with your basic flying abilities you would take the heli up and away from everyone and then turn nose in, then when you lose it just piro back to tail in with plenty of height to spare.

Sorry but this all reads like the bloody nanny state again, you aren't competent because blah blah, next thing none of us are allowed to fly unless our names Duncan Osbourne.

[trvo]

Well said Ash...

Trev

[Rotorhead]

The point is to show a basic level of ability and that you can fly safely.....

IMO its overly basic.

The A test demonstrates control of the model in all basic orientations

No, it doesnt, nose in and side in are basic orientations, they are the building blocks to having total control of the aircraft.

Only when you have total control over the heli in conventional flight (not 3D) is a pilot competent, that goes for models and full scale.

Just my opinion, but as far as I am concerned that means unless you can fly it around and be able to bring it back to a hover no matter which way its facing at the time you stopped without having to turn it so that its tail in, then you're simply not yet up to the standard where I would say "yes he/she is competent and can fly unsupervised at a club"

Lets compare it to full scale heli PPL's, if the pilot only learned to hover a full scale heli would the instructor be right to walk away and consider him competent enough to carry on on his own, and would the FAI? no

The scale of the aircraft is irrelevant, its still an aircraft at the end of the day.

While the airplane A is fine, IMO the heli A needs adding to, it doesnt seem to cover all the basics, which is what its supposed to be doing, and nose in and side ways hovering is definatly basic flying.

[richieclarkie]

I agree with idea of bringing in a pirouetting manouvre to the B. I also have no real issues with the hovering M. If you regard it as dangerous then I think you aren't in control enough and so in my opinion it should stay in.

Yeah you could put an auto in there too, but I rekon a controlled 45 degree powered decent is harder and has more validity.

If you are going for your B (as it is now) and pass I have every respect for you as it takes time, effort and commitment to achieve that level of flying.

[Ashley Davis]

nose in and side in are basic orientations

side in yes.....and you get to practice this for the walking pace lazy eight.
Nose-in is not a basic orientation, just because the heli is the right way up does not mean it is basic. I know a few fliers who have been flying many years who can't do a nose-in hover and have no intention of learning it, they are very happy just flying around. They rarely crash and are perfectly safe, certainly much safer than a newbie who can do nose-in and is pushing their limits to learn the first steps of 3D.

Only when you have total control over the heli in conventional flight (not 3D) is a pilot competent, that goes for models and full scale.

How about I take your idea of basic orientation and conventional flight and insist that backwards lazy eights are basic, the heli's the right way up and at some point your heli will go backwards whether you like it or not. Is this not conventional flight, it's certainly not 3D.

Just my opinion, but as far as I am concerned that means unless you can fly it around and be able to bring it back to a hover no matter which way its facing at the time you stopped without having to turn it so that its tail in, then you're simply not yet up to the standard where I would say "yes he/she is competent and can fly unsupervised at a club"

Bring on the nanny state

Lets compare it to full scale heli PPL's

Let's not as the two are totally different.

I wondered when this sort of comment would come out, in a real model if you aren't competent the moment you take off the likely outcome is either your own life, somebody elses or both is highly likely to end pretty soon. With a model the likely hood of death due to not being able to fly nose-in is pretty minimal.

Basically we aren't going to agree on this (no, really Ash?) and if nose-in was part of the A test then I think it would kill it dead, no one would bother as it's just too damn hard and the BMFA has trouble enough getting people to do the A test as it is now. I do a fair bit of teaching and I can tell you that if nose-in was in there it would not help this hobby or the proficiency schemes. Little steps at a time to give people a sense of achievement is what's needed.....and that's where the A test scores top marks for me.

[Rotorhead]

side in yes.....and you get to practice this for the walking pace lazy eight.
Nose-in is not a basic orientation, just because the heli is the right way up does not mean it is basic. I know a few fliers who have been flying many years who can't do a nose-in hover and have no intention of learning it, they are very happy just flying around. They rarely crash and are perfectly safe, certainly much safer than a newbie who can do nose-in and is pushing their limits to learn the first steps of 3D.

Then what are they going to do when the end up in a hover facing themselves one day.....

Nose in is basic, and should be part of the A imo.

How about I take your idea of basic orientation and conventional flight and insist that backwards lazy eights are basic, the heli's the right way up and at some point your heli will go backwards whether you like it or not. Is this not conventional flight, it's certainly not 3D.

No backwards is not conventional flight, essentially conventional flight is what you can expect to see from a full scale real one day in day out, eg circuits and forward flight, if you can replicate that reasonably well no matter which way its facing and stop it at any point arround the circuit then that should be the level of the A

Bring on the nanny state

This has nothing to do with benefits.

Let's not as the two are totally different.

No, lets

I wondered when this sort of comment would come out, in a real model if you aren't competent the moment you take off the likely outcome is either your own life, somebody elses or both is highly likely to end pretty soon. With a model the likely hood of death due to not being able to fly nose-in is pretty minimal.

The priniciple is the same, you shouldnt half learn something and get something that others would use to judge that you are ok to fly unsupervised.

Basically we aren't going to agree on this (no, really Ash?) and if nose-in was part of the A test then I think it would kill it dead, no one would bother as it's just too damn hard and the BMFA has trouble enough getting people to do the A test as it is now. I do a fair bit of teaching and I can tell you that if nose-in was in there it would not help this hobby or the proficiency schemes. Little steps at a time to give people a sense of achievement is what's needed.....and that's where the A test scores top marks for me.

No, I dont think we are going to agree, I think you will be surprised about the number of people flying helis that can do nose in and ciricuits at club level, who could take an A that would include what I have said, eg at the indoor I go to its always about half and half, with some faces disappearing and some appearing, but generally its about half who are up to learning circuits.

I dont think it would affect the popularity of the A certificate at all if it where in there, infact the biggest thing affecting people taking or not taking it is the availability of examiners, thats why I'm going for my instructors and examiners rating in a bit, having just gotten my B (which I could have gotten years ago if I could have been bothered)

Another problem is that not many people see any point in it, me included, I never bothered with my A, I never needed it, and only took my B because there happened to be the area examiner there on the day who brought it up, I have little to no interest in display or competition flying, so dont really need it, but the examiner just happened to be at the field that day.