Align Flybarless

[andylinney]

As it currently stands you cannot take any BMFA certificate using a flybarless system.

Obviously if this system becomes the norm then the current rules will have to change.

Tim, was that not the case with Heading Lock gyros initially?

I must admit that I can not tell the difference when flying the v-bar over flying the flybarred head (perhaps that's more of a reflection on my flying than the systems involved) so I think that'll soon change once it becomes widely apparent that it's not an autopilot in the manner of the helicommand systems but rather an algorythm (I can't spell algorythm... Sorry...) to replicate the action of the flybar that we'll see more widespread acceptance of it.

But, that's all in the future...

[Tosh]

l didn`t say it was a bad thing, far from it. We`ve been running a V-bared 600N at the club for over a year now. lt flys great, a big improvment. l`m just intrested to see the forth coming change in attitude towards FBL when the Align works pilots start banging them about.

[Tim Procter]

Tim, was that not the case with Heading Lock gyros initially?

I can't answer that Andy but this system was discussed at the weekend when I took my "B" test.

Richard Budd confirmed Flybarless systems cannot be used as Contra's can't either.

Topic worth discussing though, Maybe another thread to start.

[jiberjaber]

Tim, was that not the case with Heading Lock gyros initially?

I must admit that I can not tell the difference when flying the v-bar over flying the flybarred head (perhaps that's more of a reflection on my flying than the systems involved) so I think that'll soon change once it becomes widely apparent that it's not an autopilot in the manner of the helicommand systems but rather an algorythm (I can't spell algorythm... Sorry...) to replicate the action of the flybar that we'll see more widespread acceptance of it.

But, that's all in the future...

I think half the battle there will be that it will be hard to write in the whats is and isnt allowed with FBL, take gyrobots for example, they offer up to flavours, one is full learner orientated the other is just the FBL version, so how would that be written in a BMFA style? I think it might have to stay as it is untill a suitable technical description can be made to cover the non-self righting / stabalising versions...

[Tosh]

I can't answer that Andy

l can. lt`s yes.

[ChrisB]

I am curious on the BMFA stance,the V Bar as an example is an electronic flybar its not a stabilisation system by any stretch of the imagination to make the model easier to fly.

It would do no more to stabilise a said model than to stick heavier paddles on it to tame it down.

I reckon the BMFA stance is dont understand it,ban it..

[mark Taylor]

As it currently stands you cannot take any BMFA certificate using a flybarless system..

Oh dam
I was hopeing to take my b test with this counta rotater I have lying about
cheers

[Holst]

I am curious on the BMFA stance,the V Bar as an example is an electronic flybar its not a stabilisation system by any stretch of the imagination to make the model easier to fly.

It would do no more to stabilise a said model than to stick heavier paddles on it to tame it down.

I reckon the BMFA stance is dont understand it,ban it..

Can you not tweak the settings so that your heli will be much more stable in the hover and wind than with a flybar?
Especially on smaller helis?

Although the point of the vbar isnt to make things easyer it might be possible to acheive this if you wanted too. (please correct me if im wrong)

If flybarless becomes the standard then the BMFA could have a FBL test where FBL systems are allowed and still give a B cert for it.

[andylinney]

Oh dam
I was hopeing to take my b test with this counta rotater I have lying about
cheers

Unlucky Mark...

I agree with Tim that the discussion is probably better placed in another thread but it's clear that it's still quite a contentious subject for some. We're now in the position of having three v-barred models at our club so I wonder what the SAA's stance might be or indeed what RCHA intend...

New thread started...

[andylinney]

Can you not tweak the settings so that your heli will be much more stable in the hover and wind than with a flybar?
Especially on smaller helis?

Although the point of the vbar isnt to make things easyer it might be possible to acheive this if you wanted too. (please correct me if im wrong)

In a word, no...

What you can do is alter the way the heli responds to inputs from the pilot, so it's possible to calm the heli down by reducing the agility of the machine much in the same way as you might alter flybar ratios, lengths and paddle weights and sections or alter blade weight and cyclic travel. The v-bar doesn't correct anything that you do wrong, at least in my experience of it so far, equally it won't sit and hover any better than a well set up flybarred machine.

[Tosh]

l`d have to dissagree there Andy.
My V-bared Logo 500 handles the wind much better than any heli l`ve ever flown but l still have fast cyclics and mega power. lt`s all in the setup.

[Stuart]

Vbar to all intense and purposes is like having HH on all three axis - i won't self right itself but it re-acts to the commands of the pilot, but if the wind is pushing and it see's no command from the pilot for this then it will as HH does stop it - however it will not put a heli into a hover if take your hands off.

In my view the RCHA would sanction vbar or any flybarless formats that deliver the same as vbar. As long as its not a self righting systems or beginners stabilization system which vbar is not.

[Andy from Sandy]

Without finding the exact wording the BMFA dis-allow electronic stabilisation for all but the yaw axis.

I reckon the BMFA stance is dont understand it,ban it..

I would guess that as a black box an electronic flybar and something like a helicommand are the same thing. They both have 3 axis gyros. So the BMFA do understand it which is why the dis-allow it at present.

[Tosh]

Vbar to all intense and purposes is like having HH on all three axis - i won't self right itself but it re-acts to the commands of the pilot, but if the wind is pushing and it see's no command from the pilot for this then it will as HH does stop it - however it will not put a heli into a hover if take your hands off.

In my view the RCHA would sanction vbar or any flybarless formats that deliver the same as vbar. As long as its not a self righting systems or beginners stabilization system which vbar is not.

Exactly. The V-bar is only doing what a flybar does only it does it much faster.

[scallybert]

Exactly. The V-bar is only doing what a flybar does only it does it much faster.

A Bell-Hiller flybar doesn't give you HH on the pitch and roll axes (which is what Stuart suggested a V-bar does), either in theory or my experience.

So if the V-bar does maintain attitude, it's functionally different to a fly-bar (not just faster, more effective, etc.)