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  • #16
    There are two types of flybar-less- electronic and mechanical. Mechanical is mostly for scale, and I'm guessing the OP is more interested in aerobatics / 3D, so lets ignore mechanical for now....

    Advantages of FBL:
    1) Less drag, therefore more power to the rotors.
    2) More responsive, and more easily "tuned" to the pilots preferences.

    Disadvantages:
    1) MUCH more expensive! (FBL unit, heavy duty servos, etc)
    2) Takes longer to set up initially - some units require access to a computer to do it properly.
    3) Prone to tipping on take-off.
    4) Servo damage more likely in the event of (3), or indeed any blade contact with a solid object.

    I've recently built my first electronically stabilised FBL heli. I can normally set a flybar up from scratch in about half-an-hour. The FBL unit took me nearly all day, with constant references to the user manual to set it up properly on the computer. I accept that this was partly due to my unfamiliarity with it, and partly that it is known to be a complex unit to set up! Not all units are that tricky. From a flying perspective, you need to be MUCH more careful with take-offs and landings. I manageed to strip all my servo gears (metal ones!) due to a slightly cack-handed take off, despite there being no other damage to the model or blades! Once in the air, there is less "sneeze factor" than with a flybar - but the same is true (more so, in fact) of mechanical FBL, which I've been flying for years.

    So its horses for courses. If you are into full on 3D or FAI flying, FBL is the way to go. If you are a sport flyer, its a lot of money and hassle for little gain.

    Multi-blade heads:
    Again, there are two types: Those intended for scale, and those for aerobatics. Scale ones are often fully articulated (as per full-size), and as such, don't always need an FBL unit. Aerobatic ones tend to be rigid, and unless very big and turbine powered, will almost certainly need an fbl unit to make them flyable. I'm assuming the OP is talking about aerobatic use again.

    Multi-blade heads tend to have more inertia than two bladers, which makes autos better. They also seem to run smoother. - a bit like the difference between four, six and eight cylinder car engines! Odd numbers of blades seem to work better than evens, many full size machines having an odd number of blades. Jim Morley used to say that he could never get his 4-blader to fly as well as his 3-blader, despite them being otherwise identical! Tha manufacturers would have you believe that a multi-blade head will respond quicker, but the maths doesn't seem to support that. The "following rate" seems to be dictated mainly by diameter, weight and rpm, rather than the number of blades. The improved response time - if it exists - must be down to other factors. However, the added smoothness alone is a big bonus.

    They are, however, a pig to get tracking accurately! Its not simply a case of tweaking a blade and seeing if you make it better or worse, as with a 2-blade. You have to identify WHICH blade is out as well, and that is often a 2-man job! If you are lucky, and very careful with your initial bench set-up, you will probably get it pretty close immediately. However, with a bit of wear and tear, expect the tracking to start to go out, and that's when the nightmare begins!

    Just my 2p worth! Other will probably disagree!

    Pete

    No matter how much you push the envelope, it'll still be stationery.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by pchristy View Post

      Disadvantages:
      1) MUCH more expensive! (FBL unit, heavy duty servos, etc)
      2) ...
      3) Prone to tipping on take-off.
      4) ...
      Hmmm ... not sure I totally agree with these statements! FBL units can be very cheap now - the HobbyKing copies come in as low as £30 for a basic unit (probably less than a good gyro). You can even get a BeastX clone (running older firmware) for about £45 new. You can pick up a second hand AR7200BX for <£100. Yes, a flybar is cheaper (but don't forget you need the gyro!), but in a crash, less tends to break with a the simpler head of a flybarless heli, so crash costs are likely to be smaller. So, more expensive - hmm, possibly but not really convinced. *MUCH* more expensive - no, really don't think so ...

      With regards tip-over on take off. That definitely was a fault of the early units when FBL was in its infancy. However, I've been flying FBL for 2 years and have never had a tip-over - or close to it. The old rules of "don't touch the cyclics until you're in the air..." are just that - old rules. I always check cyclic movement before take off, and correct the cyclics during take off. Pretty much EVERY controller on the market these days is aware of when the heli is on the ground, and reacts properly.

      EDIT : As for the heavy-duty servos. FBL does put more stress on the servos - but I think most servos these days are designed with FBL in mind, so not sure you save much there having a flybar. I would say though that DFC heads are likely to transmit crash forces to the servos more than swash-driver heads.
      Last edited by tomatwalden; 22-04-2014, 09:54 AM.
      Tom
      sigpic Synergy E7SE - Kontronic Helijive 120+ ESC, vBar Neo
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      - Castle Edge 120HV, vBar Neo
      Blade 700X - Castle Edge 160HV ESC, Mini vBar
      Logo 550SXv2 - Castle 130LV ESC, vBar Neo
      .... and a Gaui X3
      Spektrum DX8 ; Mikado VBC ; RealFlight 7 & neXt sims
      ... and two EGS'



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      • #18
        And let's not forget, before fbl became as popular as it is you could pay £300+ for a quality gyro/servo combo
        sigpic


        Rave ENV Nitro
        New Logo 550
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        I use VBar control because it's feckin awesome I use NEO rescue when I remember to
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        • #19
          Originally posted by milly0812 View Post
          And let's not forget, before fbl became as popular as it is you could pay £300+ for a quality gyro/servo combo

          Jesus!! were you buying platinum gear servo's???
          Yes the big sigpic is coming back

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          • #20
            Originally posted by p4ddy View Post
            Jesus!! were you buying platinum gear servo's???
            I paid £120 or so for my futaba gy520 when i bought it and i seem to remember quarks being about the same. Servos were also similar in price to what they are now, so even 4 servos for a 450 size would set you back £80 or so. For a 700 size model i can easily see £300 being about right.

            Personally I think FBL is cheaper than FB used to be. Less parts count, similar priced servos and similar priced gyros.

            For me FBL is win, win, win and I think for 99% of the community that is how they see it too.

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            • #21
              He was only refering to the tail servo/gyro combo. £100-120 SL720 £85 servo
              Yes the big sigpic is coming back

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              • #22
                Originally posted by p4ddy View Post
                Jesus!! were you buying platinum gear servo's???
                Futaba GY611 Gyro w/BL251 Brushless Servo

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                • #23
                  flybarless benefits?

                  That's what I had on my 600 nitro. Couldn't hover for toffee but had all the gear lol

                  Just found an old vid of it, my very first attempts at inverted and almost stacked it with a dumb thumb at the end lmao yes paddy I used to have flybars ......shudders lol

                  http://youtu.be/I-VDGu2G98o
                  Last edited by milly0812; 22-04-2014, 03:35 PM.
                  sigpic


                  Rave ENV Nitro
                  New Logo 550
                  Synergy N5c
                  TSA 700E night flier
                  I use VBar control because it's feckin awesome I use NEO rescue when I remember to
                  5 x EGS thingys and a Platinum star doo dah

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                  • #24
                    Revisiting my flybar days with the trusty 401.

                    Click image for larger version

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                    Julius

                    Gaui X3 Fubar
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                    • #25
                      Careful Julius you'll have paddy fumbling in his pants
                      sigpic


                      Rave ENV Nitro
                      New Logo 550
                      Synergy N5c
                      TSA 700E night flier
                      I use VBar control because it's feckin awesome I use NEO rescue when I remember to
                      5 x EGS thingys and a Platinum star doo dah

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                      • #26
                        There's a lot less bent twisted mangled metal work when you turn it in to a lawn mower! Which makes the reversal of said adaptation a bit cheaper and easier to get back in the air.
                        I have two tools in my tool box. A hammer...... and a condom. If that doesn't work then it's TJFGOP.... The Jobs Fd Going On The P:::::::

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                        • #27
                          All of my models have had flybars I've never messed about with shortening them and different paddles though, My 600 though had gone through the conversion over the winter period mainly because I was interested to see what the fuss was all about.

                          I haven't been able to put much time in on the sticks with it, but with the time I have, I've noticed its a lot faster to flip and roll (about as good as my flying has got to press lol) It gave me confidence to perform more maneuvers and push my flying on.

                          I could hover the flybar hands off for what seemed like an age and it generally felt a lot more stable in the air, I also got more satisfaction out of setting a flybarred model up because of the messing about with link lengths etc, FBL is a lot cleaner and simpler.

                          It may be my settings on my beastx as I say I've not had much time on it to set it up properly & I'm still pretty much a noob flying in comparison to some.


                          FBL Looks better though

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                          • #28
                            you've got the options of
                            flybar
                            mans flybarless
                            poofs flybarless

                            not many can fly flybarless without electronics , the mans way
                            but it is much nicer the poofs way (with electronics)
                            Hirobo Turbulence D3
                            a bunch of bls servo's and a 701 gyro
                            Powered by an OS91 hz and a MP2
                            Winner of the LHC Scale Cup 2011

                            1/4 scale Vario Bell 47 G3
                            1/3 scale Vario R22
                            2012 LHC Scale Cup Judge
                            member of save the flybar foundation
                            www.alcesterhelicopterclub.bmfa.org
                            sigpic

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by electricsceadu View Post
                              you've got the options of
                              flybar
                              mans flybarless
                              poofs flybarless

                              not many can fly flybarless without electronics , the mans way
                              but it is much nicer the poofs way (with electronics)
                              On my helis that use a Total-G I have the flight control gain on the aux-2 switch as it's convenient when doing the setup but I usually leave it that way and it lets me fly 'no bar' if I want. So should I stick labels on the TX so that the two switch positions are 'man' and 'poof' ?
                              Kasama, Minicopter, Henseleit, JR, Shape, Beam
                              Robbe, RMJ Raptor gasser, powered by
                              Spartan, Spirit, BeastX, Kontronik, CY Total-G, DX8

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                              • #30
                                the labels sound a great idea
                                my futaba units do the same on the control amp it can be turned to a no-bar/rate mode or avs mode (poofs mode)
                                the rate mode is used for set up

                                but how many will fly in ultra mans mode? non-bar with no tail gyro
                                Hirobo Turbulence D3
                                a bunch of bls servo's and a 701 gyro
                                Powered by an OS91 hz and a MP2
                                Winner of the LHC Scale Cup 2011

                                1/4 scale Vario Bell 47 G3
                                1/3 scale Vario R22
                                2012 LHC Scale Cup Judge
                                member of save the flybar foundation
                                www.alcesterhelicopterclub.bmfa.org
                                sigpic

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