BMFA Notice re-Futaba 2.4 Fasst

[moyesboy]

If three have the same "address" in the same club - there must be a whole production batch of 100s or thousands out there, spread all over the planet and virtually impossible to recall...
I hope they can get the tx to display the id number with a few extra button presses so everyone can quickly identify their txs as not effected.
Worse would be if there are groups of txs with the same address id, and many of those groups.

I'd like to see an assurance from spectrum that we will be ok, no matter what the pootaba is doing the spectrum will ignor it (Which I'm quite sure is the case)
...safe apart from the footaba models flying into us that is.

[SimonV6]

Think I'm the only one at our club that has one, which sounds like a good thing was thinking of upgrading to the 7C FASST when it came out, not so sure now? maybe best to go the specktrum route? but worry about all the posts I've read about the rx resetting mid flight?

Thought I read on one site that the all the uk 7C's had been checked and none had the 0000000's?
if so, how can one check their own tx for the code?

Simon

[DemonJim]

From everything I've read about this problem on various forums it appears to me that the following is the most likely problem here. This is a possibility that Futaba can very easily confirm or deny with some basic testing.

The theory is letting the battery level get too low (ie leaving your TX on accidentally) can wipe the stored GUID in flash memory to a default value (probably 0000000). This means you can find multiple TXs in use at the same time that control a single RX (or rather confuse it and shoot an aircraft down).

This is easily tested if anyone wants to be a guinea pig... here's what Futaba / Ripmax should be doing right now (although with LOTS of different sets):

1. Leave your 6EX or 7C on for a couple of days (so it's shut itself down and is left for a while with the power switch in an on state).
2. Turn off the TX, and recharge the battery fully
3. Turn on the TX, then try one of your [previously bound] RXs, and see if it's still bound to it.
4. If it is still bound, the GUID hasn't changed and everthing is probably fine (unless it was ALREADY reset*)
5. IF you have to rebind the RX then STOP! Send the TX back to Futaba and demand a refund replacement with a UNIQUE ID.

* In this case it is possible your TX already has a GUID of 0000000, in which case you need to do this test:

1. Obtain a brand new, unused and unbound FASST RX (sold boxed on its own, and not one that is part of a TX set or has previously been returned by someone)
2. See if your TX can connect to it before pressing the bind button.
3. If it won't connect before you press bind, you're probably OK..
4. If it connects before you pressed bind then STOP! Send the TX back to Futaba and demand a refund or replacement with a UNIQUE ID.

Anyone willing to actually try this?

Or more to the point - has anyone who accidentally left their TX on overnight find they strangely had to rebind their RXs? This MUST have happened as it SO easily done, and easily dismissed as not a problem, but if the above theory is correct Futaba have a biig problem.

Edit: Actually of course the only way to 100% prove there is a problem is to do the above to two TXs, and try and get them to both operate the same RX without re-binding, and see if they interfere. I've seen posts where people claim this but Futaba of course have to do this for themselves.

[Nutz]

A post form our club website by a person that works in the trade.

Somethings I heard about this today :-

RipMax know about this,
Futaba know about it aswell,
They are both doing something about it, but are not saying much / anything at all atm,
This problem will be bought up at the BMFA meeting this week!

What I heard from RipMax "Not a quote" today was :-

If you have 2.4Ghz FASST then best to take it back to where you bought / got it from and do the following test!

Turn on your 2.4Ghz FASST TX set next to a new out of the box "un-binded " RX and see what happen's!
If the flashing Red light turns to Green, then you know you have one of the set's that is faulty / not working right!

Also RipMax may send out to the shop's a FASST 2.4Ghz RX, with out the ID set "binding button", so the shop keepers can test all Futaba TX's!


.......So if you are using any of Futaba FASST stuff, then best to do the test above, right away!

[DemonJim]

The problem with the "try a new RX" I've since realised is that in my experience shops have a habbit of putting returned / used items back on the shelf. This is a great way to prove if your set is zero-ID, but it cannot prove that it isn't.

So it could be quite easy for a shop to get a "new" rx, and reassure all its customers that their TXs are OK, when all along that rx has been bound to a set with a unique-ID. When you buy a new one how sure can you be that someone in the shop hasn't used it to demo something to a potential customer, and put it back on the shelf quite innocently?

The only way I'd say is to get a known faulty / zero-GUID transmitter, and use this to bind to an RX, with which you can then check your own TX. Ripmax should be able to do this as presumably they've been sent the faulty radios in question.

The worry though is if any 6EX and 7C can lose its GUID, or if it's just a handful of sets released (ie an isolated bad batch)? This is the big question Futaba need to answer, and fasst! *

Basically if you ever find you have to re-bind your RXs for no apparent reason then start worrying, until then always ensure you need to press the bind button to connect to any new RXs you buy.

Also, some good advice you never seem to see is this: after all other safety checks have been done always watch the sky while turning you TX on -- if an aircraft starts acting crazy or a pilot begins swearing loudly then switch off quick!!

* sorry ;-)

[moyesboy]

Its absolutely essential for the ID to be stored in non volatile memory in the Tx.
But in the rx it is not.

The battery will always be disconnected from the rx for long periods.

It wouldn't really matter if the Rx lost its id after, say, 3 months on the shelf. You would always notice and rebind it before you flew the model (though it would matter if there was a zero'd tx operating when you switched the rx on!).

So who's to say that a rebind is not caused by the rx forgetting itself (no problem) rather than the tx (disaster).
IF its the rx that resets to default 00000..., having to rebind would be a good thing rather than a bad thing!

I wonder if its a case of putting the things in the fridge like scousers used to do with anti theft coded car radios?

All this speculation is a waste of time and the speculations get repeated through forums and taken as facts.
There should be some info from ripmax and futaba by now!

[Guest]

[*]Leave your 6EX or 7C on for a couple of days (so it's shut itself down and is left for a while with the power switch in an on state).

So if you drain / flatten the battery, whats the difference in just removing the battery

[Taffage]

So if you drain / flatten the battery, whats the difference in just removing the battery

I am using the 7 channel module as are a number of others at our club and I swap it out regularly as do others that have some models srtill on 35mhz. I have never had to rebind a receiver or had any issues with loss of control etc. I have flown with others also using the same system again without any issues.

The modules I can only assume from this do not suffer from the same fate or we all just got lucky

[DemonJim]

So if you drain / flatten the battery, whats the difference in just removing the battery

Removing the battery gives a sudden drop to zero voltage, which the set is designed to handle gracefully (as that's all the power switch does anyway).

Running the battery too low means something else could potentially happen. Don't forget the software displays voltage, and triggers a low-battery alarm, the theory is (and remember it is just theoretical) that it may cause a bug in the software when it gets way too low, or sustaining a very low voltage might have an undesired effect on the flash memory where the GUID is stored (even though of course it is non-volatile memory, it can still be changed forcibly just like you do to an RX when binding, unless of course the GUID is permanent in a ROM chip and then it cannot be reset).

This is of course all guesswork but not outside the bounds of possibility -- remember somebody has claimed that accidentally leaving their TX on and flattening the battery caused this zero-GUID to happen to their 6EX, and this is very different to Futaba releasing a batch of radios with zero-GUIDs (and far more worrying of you ask me). Time will tell.

[Taffage]

remember somebody has claimed that accidentally leaving their TX on and flattening the battery caused this zero-GUID to happen to their 6EX, and this is very different to Futaba releasing a batch of radios with zero-GUIDs (and far more worrying of you ask me). Time will tell.

I have to agree, I would be far happier to think it was just a bad batch!

[DemonJim]

It's a bit of both unfortunately. Bad batch AND potential for resetting the GUID (see #2 below)... :

http://www.ripmax.com/notification_futaba.asp

Futaba 6EX and TM-7 Important Notification

This notification affects only owners of the Futaba TM-7 module and 6EX FASST systems. Each FASST transmitter contains a unique eight digit identification code, programmed at the factory to identify the respective transmitter and to allow a receiver to be paired only to that radio's signal. Recently we have learned that a very small number of the TM-7 modules, and 6EX FASST systems were incorrectly coded with a common code number during the manufacturing process. These units were subsequently sold prior to our awareness of the situation.

If two or more units, utilizing this common identification code, were to be in use simultaneously, they may cause interference with one another. Please note: Units which utilize the correct identification code will not be affected by these units.

We're extremely confident that this is not a widespread problem, however, to give you peace of mind that your system is not affected, we will soon be setting up test points at participating model shops throughout the country where you will be able to go to determine -- within a matter of seconds -- whether or not your transmitter is affected, at no charge to you. (We anticipate that all shops will have been advised and that this testing system will be starting in participating shops very shortly, so please contact your local shop to arrange testing.)

Precautionary Measures and Information

1) As with all radio control equipment, we strongly suggest that you pre-flight your aircraft thoroughly prior to flying. When flying at a location with other FASST owners, particularly prior to all units having been checked, we suggest that prior to flying all pilots briefly activate their systems simultaneously to check for any interaction between units. If any interactions should occur, do NOT fly. Please return the unit to the Ripmax Futaba Service Centre immediately.

2) Each time that your transmitter is turned on, it is imperative that you allow the FASST system an adequate amount of time to thoroughly boot-up completely before shutting down the transmitter. The system requires at least five (5) seconds boot up time prior to turning off the power to the transmitter.

3) If the transmitter and receiver have lost their binding which required them to be re-linked, we recommend returning them to the Ripmax Futaba Service Centre for analysis. This is not expected behaviour and should be investigated accordingly.

[DemonJim]

In case anyone is actually following this topic and aren't watching other forum discussions, I am reliably informed that the problem is this:

The GUID can be reset to zero on the 6EX if power is turned off almost exactly half a second after initial turn on (give or take 20ms), and on the 7C / TM-7 it can happen if you power off after almost exactly two seconds (give or take 20ms). 20ms is 1/50th of a second, so that's a pretty small window to do the damage.

It's not guaranteed to reset the GUID if you do this but from tests these are the only times it can happen on these radios. In tests running the battery down didn't reset the GUID, so if you ever do this accidentally (or indeed accidentally turn off too soon) all you need to do is ensure you don't have to rebind your RXs and you'll definitely OK.

I am still amazed that doing this can actually write to the flash memory, but there you go. If only Futaba made it so RXs ignored invalid GUIDs (of which 0000000 should be) then there wouldn't be a safety problem (although you'd still have to get a new transmitter..)

The underlying FASST technology is still superior to the Spektrum's method IMHO (I just feel the hopping method would be less susceptible to interference as more and more 2.4 gadgets come out) so I for one will still be buying an FF7 2.4GHz when it comes out here. I mean who's to say you can't wipe the GUID on a Spektrum set in some way anyway - it's probably stored in flash memory just the same. If I were them I'd be doing some serious testing right now..

[ronlaw]

A post form our club website by a person that works in the trade.

Somethings I heard about this today :-

RipMax know about this,
Futaba know about it aswell,
They are both doing something about it, but are not saying much / anything at all atm,
This problem will be bought up at the BMFA meeting this week!

What I heard from RipMax "Not a quote" today was :-

If you have 2.4Ghz FASST then best to take it back to where you bought / got it from and do the following test!

Turn on your 2.4Ghz FASST TX set next to a new out of the box "un-binded " RX and see what happen's!
If the flashing Red light turns to Green, then you know you have one of the set's that is faulty / not working right!

Also RipMax may send out to the shop's a FASST 2.4Ghz RX, with out the ID set "binding button", so the shop keepers can test all Futaba TX's!


.......So if you are using any of Futaba FASST stuff, then best to do the test above, right away!

hi guys
just done this test with a futaba ff9 suer with the 7tm modjule and 4x fasst r607fs (not binded before brand new) not any off the 4x would bind when powered up plus left my 12mz with the new tm14 modjule on at all times in this test too(just a thuot)
the next test with out the 12mz on i bind each of the r607fs to the ff9 7tm modjule would work like this
1st power up then red flashing light after about 4 secs go to green flashing
2nd pressed bind button then went to solid green and working ok
all the same on all 4x off the r607rs rxs
then try-ed all 4x(binded to the ff9 7tm modjule) one at a time with my 12mz(not binded) with the modjule on at all times and no interference and working ok (or 2x tx working one rx)
hope i have put this the way i was thinking

[Captain Crash]

[IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/CHRIS/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-4.jpg[/IMG]

[Smoothound]

You are not wrong.


I'd be taking my Tx back as not fit for use if you listen to the drivel coming out from RipoffMax