Translational lift

[ajenkins]

Hi, is there a way to adjust translational lift in Phoenix? In case anyone doesn't know, by "translational lift" I mean the extra lift a heli gets when moving as opposed to just hovering.

I'm trying to get the Phoenix Spark to fly more like my Blade CP Pro. One big difference is that whenever I transition from hover to forward flight with the BCPP I have to reduce the throttle a bit if I don't want the heli to climb, and likewise I have to raise the throttle when coming back to a hover. The Spark doesn't seem to exhibit this behavior at all, or at least not enough to be obvious. The same is true of the Phoenix Trex 450 compared to my Falcon 3D. Are there any aircraft settings I can change in Phoenix to affect this behavior? Thank you.

Adam

[Ade_Law]

Adam, there was a tweek to the translational lift in 1.03c make sure your running the latest version. Also 5mph of wind helps a lot too.

Ade

[ajenkins]

Thank you for your response Ade. I currently have version 1.03c. I can see that the models do exhibit a little bit of translational lift, and it seems more apparent on some models than others. I was wondering if there are any aircraft settings in Phoenix I can change to adjust it. The translational lift exhibited by the Phoenix Spark is much more subtle than that exhibited by my Blade CP Pro, so I was hoping to be able to adjust this behavior in the Spark.

Is there an adjustment I can make to my real helis that affects translational lift? My BCPP seems to be setup nicely and running smoothly, but perhaps it shouldn't be exhibiting that much translational lift. I just got my Falcon 3D back together after a crash, so I'll experiment with that today for a comparison. Thanks.

Adam

[ajenkins]

I've been flying my real helis a bit more lately, mostly my Blade CP Pro and Falcon 3D, and just came back to Phoenix, and the lack of translational lift is definitely a big difference between Phoenix and my real models. Anyone reading this, can you do the following experiment with your real RC helis and see what happens compared to Phoenix?

Fly slow level forward flight, say around 15 to 20 mph. Now bring the heli to a halt without adjusting the throttle stick at all. What does the heli do? Does it sink toward the ground, rise, or stay level in a hover?

For me the answer for my real helis is they'll sink down to the ground, or at least into ground effect, unless I increase the throttle a bit when transitioning into hover. In Phoenix though the helis just sit level, or even rise a bit. I'm curious to know whether my helis' behavior is normal or not, especially compared to bigger nitro helis.

Thank you,
Adam

[moyesboy]

I totally agree with this.
I finally been able to fly my real helis a bit more after putting many hours in on the sim over winter.
There is a lot more translational lift in the real thing than in phoenix. This is the biggest difference between the sim and reality and is truely in need of a fix.

I wonder if the other sims are just as unreal in this apect?

The other thing is the maximum windspeed is not enough (by a lot!), and there is no facility to make the wind direction swing about slightly like it does in real life. The gusts are totally in line with the general wind direction.

[ajenkins]

The other thing is the maximum windspeed is not enough (by a lot!), and there is no facility to make the wind direction swing about slightly like it does in real life. The gusts are totally in line with the general wind direction.

Yup, I agree about wind direction as well. I wrote Phoenix a few weeks ago about the wind direction being too constant, and the fact that the helis didn't seem to gain much altitude in gusts compared to my real ones. I think the second fact may be related to insufficient translational lift. Together these things make flying in wind in Phoenix too easy compared to real life.

Having said that, Phoenix was realistic enough to prepare me for the most part for flying in wind. Also, I've found if I exaggerate the gust speed compared to real life, say make it do 10 mph gusts, then it gets a little closer.

[Ade_Law]

dont worry lads phoenix are looking into all of these. Im not so sure the current max wind is so unrealistic. saturday was gusting 10-22mph and was pretty miserable to fly in.

moyesboy, non of the other sims i have flown have realistic translational lift they all seem to cheat by making the model pitch up in FFF!

theres a whole stack of stuff we are going to have a look at once ADK and multiplayer are complete. lack of a reliable internet connection is kinda making testing difficult tho!

Ade

[Smoothound]

Let someone with a reliable internet connection test it then

[Cralis]

These updates you speak of... like maybe a fix to the trans lift... will these be pacthes that are free to current users? I just bought mine, and would hate for a new release, feature backed, to come out now, and have to buy a new one...

[moyesboy]

So far all the updsate have been free downloads to current users.
We are all innocently hopeing that that will continue

[Nutz]

I have had my Phoenix since they were first released V1.00 and have had the patches and downloads on the Phoenix website for free, so my copy is the same as the current ones.

[ajenkins]

It seems like the translational lift in Phoenix is somehow tied to the size of the model, so that larger models exhibit more translational lift.

I say this because the Phoenix Spark seems to have zero translational lift; in fact if anything it maybe has negative translational lift, since it seems to require a little more power to maintain altitude in forward flight than to hover. This is completely wrong compared to my Blade CP Pro, which requires considerably more power to hover than in forward flight.

The Phoenix Trex 450, once I've configured its weight and power to more closely match my Falcon 3D, is a little better. I can actually detect a slight amount of translational lift, though still not nearly as much as my Falcon 3D.

With the Phoenix Raptor 50 sport, the translational lift is more noticeable. If I turn off wind and fly forward flight around 20 mph, and then slow to a hover without touching the collective, it actually slowly sinks down into ground effect.

The reason this is bugging me is because it has a bigger effect than just lack of translational lift. The problem is that if I configure a sim heli to have similar climb performance from a hover as my real heli, then it feels way too underpowered in forward flight. However if I configure the heli to feel similar to my real heli in forward flight, then it's too powerful in a hover, which makes it much to easy to for instance do stationary flips.

I haven't seen too many people mentioning this as a problem. Is this because most Phoenix users are flying larger helis, and the larger helis in Phoenix are more realistic? Do Trex 450 fliers find the Phoenix Trex 450 to be realistic in this regard?

Also, if anyone has any tips on how I might configure the Spark or Trex 450 to more closely match my helis in this regard, I'd appreciate hearing them. I've mostly been playing with the engine power and weight parameters.

Thanks,
Adam