phoenix - preparing for the next step

[bjd]

I've had Phoenix for 3 weeks now and I have a CX2 and fly with the CX2 tx. I dial in 75% expo and still have problems with Blade 400 and Min Titan. I want to fly something slow but these seem to fly forwards at quite a speed much faster than I would be comfortable with in my garden. If I try to slow down then they start flying backwards and forwards in a swinging motion - trying to control this usually leads to disaster!

Any hints on flying slowly under control please. Also any comments about a suitable next purchase to fly slowly in the garden but would still be able to fly in a bit of wind.

Would a DX6i give me more control?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Bernard

[HiroboFreak]

Too much expo can have adverse effects.
Sloppy around centre then control coming in very quickly near the end of stick travel.
Try something like 15-20%

Also make sure you have a + value for expo on the DX6i

[DooD]

Use Dual Rates. try a low rate of 75%to 80%.
No more than 30% expo, if desired.

[richieclarkie]

Just get rid of all expo and practice more in Phoenix. Helis are hard to fly and you need to practice much longer than you think.

Personally I would not worry about learning with them, I would try one of the bigger nitro machines like a synergy or vibe 50. Once you can hover very well on the spot, then try the smaller helis. It will work out a quicker way to learn as you spend more time in the air.

For real the CX2 is designed to be stable, the Blade 400 and Mini pred are not and therefore you need to put in hours of practice with them.

Flying in the garden is never going to be a great way to learn as you have no room for error unless you have a massive garden of course, so I would try to go down to local park.

Small helis worth buying start with the blade 400, then the TREX 450 V2 or Beam E4. The mini pred for real is a stinking pile of poo..

I've had Phoenix for 3 weeks now and I have a CX2 and fly with the CX2 tx. I dial in 75% expo and still have problems with Blade 400 and Min Titan. I want to fly something slow but these seem to fly forwards at quite a speed much faster than I would be comfortable with in my garden. If I try to slow down then they start flying backwards and forwards in a swinging motion - trying to control this usually leads to disaster!

Any hints on flying slowly under control please. Also any comments about a suitable next purchase to fly slowly in the garden but would still be able to fly in a bit of wind.

Would a DX6i give me more control?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Bernard

[heliTV]

Just get rid of all expo and practice more in Phoenix. Helis are hard to fly and you need to practice much longer than you think.
Personally I would not worry about learning with them, I would try one of the bigger nitro machines like a synergy or vibe 50. Once you can hover very well on the spot, then try the smaller helis. It will work out a quicker way to learn as you spend more time in the air.

Would agree completely with the first statement!! They ARE HARD TO FLY!

I find having practiced with the Blade 400 , the bigger helis are much easier in Phoenix. The new version of Phoenix (currently in downloadable Beta test) allows you to add training gear to any heli. My view is that the sim should be as hard as possible then you MIGHT be pleasantly surprised when you fly the real thing - that said, I haven't been yet!!!

Regarding learning with a nitro, I guess if there's a good club with people that can help, this is probably the best route. It does introduce another complication (an engine) with all the associated issues which is why I went electric. I'm sure your route gives you more time in the air - I've had a Blade 400 for a week. In the air - about a minute, being repaired - about 8 hours!!

Back to the topic. I don't think the DX6i gives more control on Phoenix whilst learning. You can put some Expo in using the software and whilst learning, the extra switches (like idle up) aren't needed, and in any case, can be mapped to a key on the keyboard.

I think Ritchie is right to try to practice with no expo on the sim. IMO the real things are MUCH harder than the sim so I've put some expo in on the real thing to flatten the learning curve (thanks Boggy!)

All the best

[bjd]

Thanks for the replies which indicate - KEEP WORKING AT IT!!

No one has mentioned SLOW flyers so presumably something with the slow flying qualities of the co-axials does not really exist. Pity because the scope for garden flying would be increased but my garden seems to have hidden uplifts/downdaughts even on what appears to be a windless day. Once it gets above the fence/shrub height - WATCH OUT!

Interesting that DX6i is not considered any help at this stage - now I will have to think of a different present for my birthday later this month! Progress this far does NOT encourage me to buy Blade 400 or similar in the hope/expectation that I will one day fly it or more realistically land it safely.
There don't seem to be any problems in the air in fact one could say with some truth that it flys itself!! The track and patterns are very unusual but it's interesting to watch - it's when it's coming down and I have to do something the trouble starts!!

Bernard

Hoping for an mcx when they become available.



















Anyone know of larger co-axials that might cope better outside?

Bernard

[heliTV]

Don't panic Bernard...

I too couldn't do anything in Phoenix with any of the non-coaxial helis a few weeks ago - I can now fly the Blade 400 around and land it comfortably most of the time. Now all I've got to do is translate this to the real thing...

You're right, keep practicing and one day it will click on the sim and you'll wonder what the problem was!!

The CX2 is fine provided there's no wind and, as you say, keep low as off air currents exist that you can't see or feel and it can take your heli away. Try switching the wind on in Phoenix and try a CX2 - pretty uncontrollable?

All the best

[Tim Procter]

Just get rid of all expo and practice more in Phoenix. Helis are hard to fly and you need to practice much longer than you think.

Couldnt agree more Richie, I know its a personal thing but I have never used expo all the time I have been flying helicopters.. Right or wrong..

Small helis worth buying start with the blade 400, then the TREX 450 V2 or Beam E4. The mini pred for real is a stinking pile of poo..

[unwind-protect]

One of the great things about a simulator is that you can fly different models without having to go out and buy them. The bigger models are much easier to see and fly, and I did nearly all my initial learning on them, while still flying little electrics in the real world.

You can dampen down the cyclic response by changing the 'frontal cyclic response' and 'lateral cyclic response' entries under 'Main Rotor' in the 'Edit Aircraft' dialog. For a Trex600e (what I usually practice with) values of .3 will tame it down a lot!

Your main problem---the pilot induced oscillation---probably come from you not understanding the properties of the aircraft. To move around slowly, you only need to move the rotor very slightly (almost imperceptibly) from the horizontal; even then, the aircraft will build up speed until you return the rotor to a more horizontal position. Slowing down requires you tilt the rotor backwards slightly, wait for the aircraft to slow down, and then return the rotor to horizontal to stop the aircraft then starting to move backwards. This is all a huge simplification!

Think of it this way. Imagine we had a 'speed' pedal in a car that took the place of the accellerator and brake. Pressing it would instantly make the car move at the set speed for the pedal position. Releasing it would make the car instantly stop. But we dont have this, we have something 'one step removed'. The accellerator in an automatic car controls accelleration almost directly (until it starts to slow down due to air resistance, etc). I press it down and the car starts to accellerate---it's speed builds up, dependent on the position of the accellerator. Now, the cyclic controls in a helicopter are 'one step removed' again from the accellerator in the car. The stick on the radio changes how fast I am moving the accellerator, from 'not moving it at all (keeping the current accelleration)' in the centre, to 'pushing down very fast on the accellerator or brake' at the two extremes. It's these extra levels of indirection that make helicopter flying hard.

Did that make any sense?

[bjd]

Thanks again to everyone I feel encouraged to learn that it's me that needs to give it more time and application. I will try the larger helis in Phoenix and yes Neil H I do understand your comments and whilst I understood the principle before I was moving the sticks much too much and of course this was worsened by the expo I think.

Continue with Phoenix and in ther meantime build a giant heavy but powerful contra for slow flying for now!! Actually seen some in the adverts page of PILOT magazine but they seem a lot more expensive than the ones in LHS!!!

Bernard

[cjcj1949]

There are many different ways to learn how to fly a heli. In the good old days there were two. Learn on your own or join a club. Now with sims, forums and cheap coaxials we are spoilt for choice.

In addition everybody learns in a different way and at a different speed. We all start with different skills and we have different abilities and goals.

If that wasn't bad enough we now have no shortage of advice.

It gets even worse, learning to fly a heli is not a simple objective, however you define it, it will need learning lots of different skills.

Some people can learn by just playing, either with a sim or a real heli, but I think these are the minority and most people need to decide what they are trying to learn and to aim for that.

I know you have learnt how to fly a real cx2 and now want to progress, but I think Phoenix is probably making your life more difficult. There are so many things to change and so many models that you are trying to learn too much.

What you need to do, I think, is to just fly one model with one control set up. Don't try and fly a coaxial and a single rotor. Stick to one or the other.

I think the least frustrating is probably just fly the cx2 on the sim. Play with the exp settings and rates and see how the feel of flying the cx2 changes with different control settings. You can then change the throttle curve to give yourself more control around the hover setting. Then you can go back to the real cx2 and find how different this is. Once you can go back and forwards between the two you will be ready for the next step.

What you are trying to achieve is first of all being able to work out which control input to give to make the model do what you want. Then you need to be able to give that control input automatically without thinking about it.

When to progress to the next model is up to you. You could continue with the cx2 until you can fly nose in circles or you could go for an other model when you feel you want more of a challenge. The bigger the heli the easier to fly, at least on the sim. I think in real life the more the model costs the greater the stress.

I forgot about the wind. Do you want to fly in calm or difficult conditions?

If all this is too much to think about then go for an mcx and just fly it. In the end whatever you do will work in time so long as you don't give up.

My piano teacher said 5 mins a day was better than 30 mins once a week.

I've just remembered that someone called Radd has written an excellent article on how to learn helis.

http://www.dream-models.com/eco/flying-index.html

I hope this helps.

[inferno]

Try with the larger helis, and also in the settings try slowing the sim speed down so you have more time to react. alternatively fly high sim speed for ages and keep crashing, then at normal speed you will ba able to hover nicely

[heliTV]

I've just remembered that someone called Radd has written an excellent article on how to learn helis.
http://www.dream-models.com/eco/flying-index.html

This would have helped hugely for my first week with the Blade 400 - I simply tried to run before I could crawl... I think this overconfidence was due to being able to fly comfortably in Phoenix... the real thing is much more difficult IMHO!

All the best

[richieclarkie]

It's all about stick time. The more you do the better you get. Something just clicks and you improve.... simple.

Personally I would be trying to find a club, buy a Nitro heli and enjoy the hobby with other like minded people. The club I belong to is great It's worth looking into finding one.

Don't forget we are all on the same journey here, which is , challenging, pointless, fun, frustrating, costly...... but VERY addictive

[bjd]

On the 5th OCT 'inferno' suggested that I turn down the sim speed as it would give more time to 'catch' movement and apply correction. I did this and found it very helpful.

After being away for a few days I have downloaded the version 2h of Phoenix but cannot find a slider to reduce sim speed - am I missing something obvious or shall I email phoenix?

Training gear option seems fine at first but then you realise you can get away with too many mistakes. A crash makes you think more about it in my opinion.

Bernard