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  • Mixing Ratios and Delta

    If you are running a flybarless system then you might as well stop reading now.

    The majority of RC helicopters on sale run a Bell/Hiller system to control the main rotor head. What this means is that the swashplate connects directly to the main blades (Bell) AND directly to the flybar system (Hiller). Not only that but the swashplate to main blade connection goes via a mixer system on the flybar which allows the flybar to have an influence on blade pitch (hence Bell/Hiller).

    Because of this connection going via the flybar to the main blades you have probably heard the term "flybar ratio" or "bell ratio" and that you should increase or decrease this ratio. But what is this ratio and what is the effect of raising it or lowering it.. and what's a good value anyway?

    The flybar is essentially a stabilisation device that feeds into the main blades. Therefore the more input the flybar has into the main blades then the more powerful the effect of the flybar system.

    In my earlier article about paddles I talked about the effect of different sizes and weights of paddles.. well this translates also on to the bell ratio. If a gust of wind hits the model and it has a very low bell ratio then the model will react like it has very heavy blunt paddles and move with the wind. If you have a high bell ratio then the model will react to the gust like it has light weight aggressive paddles and lean into the gust.

    When we talk about the ratio we mean the number of degrees of blade movement for each degree of flybar movement. Traditionally most machines are about 1 degree of flybar to 0.7 degrees of blade movement.

    In theory therefore you would want to run as high a ratio as possible until the model starts over correcting for wind gusts. However as with all things helicopter orientated it isn't as simple as that depending on your flying style..

    The flybar as mentioned earlier is a stabilisation device. Therefore the higher you go on the ratio the more stable the machine will feel but also the less "snappy" on the controls as the flybar fights back against your control inputs. Therefore most 3D pilots like to run a low bell ratio to make the model as reactive as possible. The downside being that the machine is badly effected by gusts of wind and suffers large trim changes. F3C pilots like to run near to 1:1 ratio so that the model will sit nearly hands off in the wind no matter which direction the wind hits the model from.

    Generally therefore as a basic rule of thumb the heavier and more docile the paddles you run the higher the bell ratio you will want. The lighter and more aggressive the paddles the less ratio.

    Yet.. there is another BUT..

    As the mixing arm is moved by flybar input and swashplate input it means as you adjust the ratio your pitch range will also change. Generally the higher the ratio the less blade pitch range you will have.

    To know what your bell mixer looks like there are 4 types of mixers that I can think of from the top of my head.

    1) Blade Grip. The mixer is quite short and sits on the blade grip leading edge and is 90 degrees to the flybar. Vibe 50, Aurora, Xcell.

    2) Trailing. The mixer is longer and connects to the trailing edge of the blade grip and runs parallel to the flybar from one side of the head to the other.. Align, JR Airskipper, Raptor.

    3) Leading. The mixer connects to the leading edge of the blade grip and runs parallel to the flybar and does not go from one side of the head to the other. Knight 3D, Hirobo Freya Evo and Scedeau Evo.

    4) Right Angle. The mixer connects to the leading edge of the blade grip and runs at 90 degrees to the flybar. Kyosho Caliber & My Aurora!

    Delta.

    Leading on from the bell mixer we get to Delta 3 mixing. What this refers to is how the blade reacts to unwanted external inputs. Now for years we talked about Delta as being either positive or negative.. but could never decide which was which as people had different definitions. Therefore it is generally referred to as "correcting" or "uncorrecting" Delta.

    How Delta mixing works (or features on your model) is dependent on where the blade grip control point (ball) is in relation to the pivot point of the spindle.

    On the JR Vigor the ball control point was inline with the center of the head and that model featured a center teeter point. Therefore there was no Delta introduced into the rotorhead.

    On most other models the ball control point is short of the center teeter point of the head (if the head has a center teeter point!) and depending on whether the grip is leading or trailing means you end up with correcting or uncorrecting delta. This is because as the spindle pivots the blade grip control ball is moving up or down as well as it is not inline with the pivot point. Therefore the pitch on the blade will change.

    WIth correcting delta as the blade flaps up the delta effect will reduce the blade pitch to try to bring the blade back down.

    With uncorrecting delta the opposite happens and it will try to force the blade up.

    Brilliant.. lets all run maximum correcting delta.

    Not so fast!

    As mentioned in my swashplate timing article everything on a helicopter happens 90 degrees out of phase. Therefore with any correcting or uncorrecting adjustment it will be happening 90 degrees too late and therefore making the rotor disk unstable.

    For general sport or 3D flying it is generally thought that 0 degree delta is the best choice. However for F3C things get a little more interesting.

    For F3C hovering uncorrecting delta may be better for the model. The reason for this is that the delta actually has an effect on the body of the model more than the blades. Imagine the model is hovering in front of you with the nose of the machine pointing left and the wind in your face. As the wind hits the model the blade disk stays pretty much where it was but the body moves towards you a little causing the machine to roll right slightly into the wind. As the advancing blade over the canopy rises in the extra lift generated by the wind the uncorrecting delta will exaggerate this movement. As the effect will only happen 90 degrees later the force will be applied when the blade is inline with the wind and furthest from you.. therefore pulling up and rotating the body of the model back to level!

    If you really want to know more about Delta then Wayne Mann has some excellent material on the "other site".

    As you can see.. to get a model setup "perfectly" requires a balancing of all the aforementioned items. The order I go about setting any machine up for F3C is the following:

    1) Choose the heaviest set of paddles and shortest flybar I can that still gives me a good roll rate. (on a 90 that is 40g and 490mm)

    2) Adjust the bell ratio until the model will not move forwards or backwards when pointing into wind in the hover. (1:1)

    3) Adjust the delta mixing so that in a cross wind the model also stays level and resists movement as much as possible. (Small amount of uncorrecting).

    4) Adjust swashplate timing so that model reacts cleanly to control inputs. e.g. forwards means forwards and not forwards and left!

    With this I can hover my model in any direction in any wind and it will almost stay there on its own and not suffer any trim changes. However in aerobatics it still has enough control authority to do a reasonably fast flip at maximum cyclic deflection AND have around 22 degrees of pitch range. The machine will also roll and loop dead straight without any mixing in the transmitter (so long as the washout phasing can be adjusted mechanically!).

    For my 3D machine I would do exactly the same except I would run lighter paddles and less bell ratio.

    Phew.. thats it for now!

    Cheers

    Mark

  • #2
    Great post Mark.
    Many thanks!

    Cheers,
    Rob
    Team Align, Midland Helicopters, Optifuel, Cyclone Blades, Scorpion Motors, Thunder Power, Savox Servos, JR Propo

    | 3D Championship

    Comment


    • #3
      Rob,

      Well my fingers started to ache after that one.. so I went out for a fly..

      It was freezing.. and wet.. so now I ache even more.. @rse!

      Mark

      Comment


      • #4
        Did you find that longer flybars didn't work for you?
        It seems that a longer flybar can give a more stable hover without loss of responsiveness - several posts recently about longer flybars and align offer longer flybars for the 450, 500, and 600 as "upgrades".
        www.heli-extreme.co.uk a good club in south Sheffield
        600n pro BeastX Align DFC head bls251, 3xbls451, align gov, 600d, 2in1
        trex500, BeastX DS510 swash, Beast X cutr and carve head DS520 HK3026-1900, Align 425D blades, 5S4200 rev'trix, K&BDD dampers, AR6200
        "450" superframeSTK, align DFC head v2tail, hk22281-8 on 3S 9650w9257gear commander 55A align 325D hitec digitals Tarot ZYX, AR6100e
        MCPX kbdd tail and blades, miniaviation bats

        Dont spend more flying models than it costs to fly for real

        Comment


        • #5
          Moyesboy,

          No they don't really make much difference to stability.. what they can do though is make the machines ultimate rotation rate faster as the longer you go the more effective the paddles become. However there are trade offs with all these things.. go too long and you start having to put in lots of swashplate timing or mixing and you start getting some flex in there too.

          Cheers

          Mark

          Comment


          • #6
            Ever thought of joining forces with Mr Ray Hostetler and writing a book Mark?
            JR Vibe Fifty fb (YS56)

            Comment


            • #7
              Excellent and detailed post Mark - Thank you

              I've just read your other thread too on swash timing and I think my head is about to go pop!

              I think a day (or two) at the field with the 3D is in order to see how nice and straight I can get the heli to fly
              Cheers, Lee.
              Proud recipient of an EGS

              Comment


              • #8
                Mark,

                Another excellent thread, thanks for all your recent posts. I have never had any detailed info as good as this before
                regards

                Pip

                Hey, where d'you learn to fly? I saw you shoot your rocket
                up.............. into the sky.

                Hey, I heard you set the pace, I never thought I'd see you back................ in this old place!

                - Roisin Murphy, Tell Everybody.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Steve,

                  I don't think my command of the English language would be up to writing a book.. and secondly it's taken best part of a year just to write these forum posts.. you fancy a book sometime around 2050?

                  Cheers

                  Mark

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thanks Mark, great post and should definitely be made a sticky

                    I'd been having trouble setting up my new metal head - it flew, but I just couldn't get it as well trimmed out as before. Just got back from the workshop and after a few tweaks it's now back to a really stable hover with the trims very nearly dead centre

                    I still can't say I fully understand how it all works, but you've definitely helped me out
                    Phil OB3
                    Trex 450SE v2

                    Walkera 4#3b
                    DX6i
                    Phoenix


                    http://stratfordgliding.co.uk/

                    ...and proud owner of THREE!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      [Longer flybar > more stability ?]
                      Originally posted by mchristyuk View Post
                      No they don't really make much difference to stability.. what they can do though is make the machines ultimate rotation rate faster as the longer you go the more effective the paddles become.
                      When you say the paddles are more effective, what do you mean ?

                      I'd assumed the paddles' aerodynamic force was working against the gyroscopic force that was due to their own mass (plus that of any flybar weights).

                      I think both of these are going to increase roughly in proportion as the flybar is extended. So the length has no effect.

                      OTOH, I have wondered if longer flybars are affected less by friction in the various ball joints in the linkages, and therefore have less of a deadband effect. Hence smaller models benefitting from disproportionatley longer flybars.

                      Great posting, BTW.
                      Yes, it's th@ tw@ Scallyb@...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        wow Mark!! ... thats about all I can say ... like Lee , my head hurts now lmao.......Its always nice to see top pilots putting pen to paper so to speak and explaining the ins and outs of heli set ups ... Me I wanted to learn setting up helis as I wanted to do it myself as it gives me more enjoyment knowing that I built , set up and test flew a model ...Keep up the good work m8e .....
                        Knight 3D
                        http://northeast3d.talkheli.co.uk/
                        http://www.lindensflyingclub.co.uk/

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Scallybert,

                          Changing the length of the flybar does have an effect. Yes you are right the gyroscopic forces go up along with the aerodynamic changes. However the aerodynamic forces change by a greater amount (otherwise we wouldn't bother having different lengths). It may be some square law or something.. not sure.. the maths invovled is probably a bit beyond me

                          What I meant by saying "more effective" is that as they are travelling faster and they have a greater effect. Therefore fitting a longer flybar will increase the ultimate rotation rate of the model.

                          As heavier paddles make a model more stable (the gyroscopic bit) then to get a decent roll rate with heavy paddles you need to lengthen the flybar.

                          Cheers

                          Mark

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by mchristyuk View Post
                            Scallybert,

                            Changing the length of the flybar does have an effect. Yes you are right the gyroscopic forces go up along with the aerodynamic changes. However the aerodynamic forces change by a greater amount (otherwise we wouldn't bother having different lengths). It may be some square law or something.. not sure.. the maths invovled is probably a bit beyond me
                            I'm sure you're right.

                            I think I was an 'r' adrift in my guessology. Something like the gyro bit increases with r**2 while the aerodynamic torque from the blades goes up with r**3.

                            Doing the maths & stuff rigorously is pretty heavy, but if you don't mind a cook-book approach, you can pick up bits from Wikipedia or the like, and fit them together to hopefully make some sense.
                            Yes, it's th@ tw@ Scallyb@...

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