BMFA B test problems

[Rainman]

Sorry Richard (Rainman), I didn't mean to under-estimate your input to the BMFA, I know you are connected to the ASRC. However, I never see you at either Full Council, Areas Council or Tech Council, which is where these decisions get made. I often feel like a lone voice in the wilderness at these meetings, as there seem to be no other heli flyers there! I would be absolutely delighted to see more heli flyers taking up some of these posts (whether they agree with me or not!) just to spread the load a bit!!!

Pete

Hi Pete

Unfortunately, I am not an area rep or on any comittee so I do not get an invite to Full Council, Area Council or Tech Council. My only involvement with ASRC was that I was the most senior examiner present at the heli examiners workshops, and my ideas were (in general) liked by those who were present including the achievement scheme controller. I was invited to one ASRC meeting to discuss the proposals. Don't think my 'blunt and straight to the point' style (well, I am from the North) went down to well, as I have never been asked back!

I was asked what I thought of the experience and replied that I am not sure what the ASRC does, as it doesn't seem to have any power and cannot even propose anything direct to council. I think the expression I used was "toothless dog"

I think my problem is that I tend to be to direct and blunt with my opinions and cannot play the politics game. As you and me agree on almost everything, except the hovering M The powers that be might not like us two as a combination

Richard

[bladetrasher]

First off I agree with Rainman about the M

But from what I am reading here is this not a case of a minority making rules for the Majority???

The B was and still is just a Personal Achievement nothing more
The fact that most shows/Comps require a Pilot to have a B test is IMHO wrong

For those that want to go the competition route at major events like 3DM or FAI, Nationals etc and Shows/Displays is it not time that another Test was brought out specifically for this

The major events and all displays etc should have their own specific Competition license... Doesn’t matter what letter of the Alphabet it’s given but surely that would make more sense than to keep changing and arguing over what should or should not be included in the B so that you can take part in competition

Competitions at a local level or like Clubman’s should be left at a B to give folks a taste of what competion flying is like.
If they show an aptitude or an interest in it then they can decide to go for the Competition license

How the hell we now folks doing the Hokey Cokey for part of a B but still no Auto's is beyond me but Crap happens LOL

[pchristy]

Richard,

I think your comments seem to reinforce what I have often said - far too few heli pilots are willing to get involved in these matters, but all to willing to shout when things happen that they don't like! From what I've seen of the ASRC, it certainly seems to be fixed-wing dominated, like so much else within the BMFA. And until more heli people step forward for some of these posts, it will stay that way!

I'm also very uneasy about the way the ASRC is constituted. All the posts seem to be within the gift of the Chairman, who is himself appointed! There appear to be no invitations to stand for any of the positions, which makes it unique within the BMFA! I should add that I have no quarrel with the way the present Chairman runs things. My encounters with him reveal him to be extremely pragmatic and practical, but I would be a lot happier if the whole set-up were more transparent!

Moving on to Bladetrasher's point: indeed, the achievement scheme is meant to be just that - a measure of personal achievement. Unfortunately, like so many other things, it has suffered from "mission creep"!

If (Heaven forbid!) a serious accident were to happen at a contest or public display, the first thing the CAA would want to know is what steps the organisers had taken to ensure the competence of the display pilots. The nearest thing we have to a "pilots license" is the achievement scheme, and the "B" certificate has become - rightly or wrongly - the de facto standard. The BMFA insist on it as a pre-condition for entry to the Nationals, and most other event organisers have followed their lead. Like it or not, the "B" certificate has become the minimum standard to qualify for flying in public.

If you wish to change this, then its no good sitting on your butt here complaining about it! You have to either contact your Area representative - or if you haven't got one, volunteer for the job yourself - and then raise the issue with the Areas Council. The procedure is straightforward enough, it just takes a little effort.

If no-one is prepared to make the effort, then don't complain when decisions are made of which you don't approve!

Cheers,

--
Pete

[bladetrasher]

If you wish to change this, then its no good sitting on your butt here complaining about it! You have to either contact your Area representative - or if you haven't got one, volunteer for the job yourself - and then raise the issue with the Areas Council. The procedure is straightforward enough, it just takes a little effort.

If no-one is prepared to make the effort, then don't complain when decisions are made of which you don't approve!

I did for the last 2 year's
Got the details from Pete Spurry and went through the Club
Still never heard anything
LOL

Let me ask this then
Do you personally think that a competition license would be better safer way to go than relying on a B

[pchristy]

I did for the last 2 year's
Got the details from Pete Spurry and went through the Club
Still never heard anything
LOL

Well, I'm not personally involved with the ASRC - I have enough on my plate already! But I have heard this kind of complaint before! Sometimes you just have to go along yourself and bang your fist on the table!

Let me ask this then
Do you personally think that a competition license would be better safer way to go than relying on a B

Well, that's what the AHA was considering when the ASRC "revised" the "B" test last year. As our statement said, we could no longer accept the revised "B" as adequate evidence of a pilots competence, and would be conducting our own further tests in addition to the "B". In other words, we would still insist on a "B", but would then conduct some further checks before allowing pilots to fly.

In the event, the BMFA nearly had a seizure when the AHA said that, and orders came down from on high to sort the matter out, pronto! And it was sorted out pronto!

I am a bit baffled though. For years, the AHA was criticised for trying to stiffen up the "B" test. We were told that it was to test how *safe* a pilot was, not how *good* he was (there's a subtle difference)!

Now it appears to be the ASRC that is trying to turn it into an aerobatic contest!

All I want of the "B" is that it should certify that a pilot can maintain safe control of his model, whatever circumstances throw at him. I don't even care if he crashes, as long as he crashes SAFELY - ie steers the model away from people and property before impact!

Including an auto (for example) is all very well, but I would argue that if you have to auto to avoid hitting someone or something, then you shouldn't have been flying there in the first place! Many of my models are either vintage or scale, and incapable of auto-ing anyway!

Also, although its easy enough to auto under controlled conditions, often when an engine quits without warning, you won't get the chance to establish a decent auto. Two years ago, I bent an old (but auto capable) model when the engine quit whilst I was turning downwind. Because of the noise nearby me, I didn't hear it go out, and only realised when the blades started to slow. I managed to get it pointed back into wind, but the headspeed had decayed too far to do other than reduce the impact. I reckon if you have to do an unexpected auto, at best you have a 50/50 chance! Sod's law says the engine will always go at the worst possible moment!

But that's just my personal view, not an "official" one!

;-)

--
Pete

[Rainman]

Now it appears to be the ASRC that is trying to turn it into an aerobatic contest!

Pete

Could you expand on this one please Pete


Regards

Baffled from Bolton

[pchristy]

Could you expand on this one please Pete

Very quickly, as I'm about to dash out the door to an RCPTC meeting....!

When the 4-point pirouette was being discussed at the meeting with the Hon Sec, the manoeuvre was being specified with the kind of precision normally associated with an F3C contest!

My experience (limited, admittedly) of ASRC tests has been that the examiner is asking himself "Has this guy got control of the model?" during the set manoeuvres, not "can he hold it there to within a few centimeters, and pause for precisely the right amount of time at each stop?", which is how it was described to me!

As I say, it reminded me very much of the FAI rule book rather than a simple test to see if the pilot had "got it" or not!

Maybe its been watered down since! I can only go on what I was told at the time!

Cheers,

--
Pete

[Rainman]

Hi Pete

The 4 point pirouette's accuracy should be of equal to which was required of the Hovering M (which use to be an FAI manouver) so I fail to see any problem.

If you wanted to be awkward (and i know you don't) you could say that the whole test is like an FAI competition as you are being 'judged' on your flying.

Richard

[pchristy]

Well, there you go! All these years I've been told that the "B" cert is not meant to be an aerobatics contest, and now I'm told it is!

You live and learn!



--
Pete

[Rainman]

Not by me Pete I was merely finding the obvious flaw in your link between the 4 point pirouette and F3C contests!

Examiners are always judging the canditates flights. It's just we use a different criteria than that used in FAI competitions.


Richard

[barney]

You are observing the candidates ability to control the model safely...Period.
Then you make the Judgement

no one actually fails It is just you dont Pass on this occasion

[john m]

I have always under the impression the B certificate was basically an advanced safety certificate. (Used for more than one purpose i.e. Comp, display and Club level)

More lately people seem to aspire to this certificate as a local club “trophy” that could be dangerous to achieve.

The FAI guys don’t normally fly behind themselves but my understanding of the B is if they ever got into this situation where they where forced to then they would be competent enough to do so safely.
Forget FAI comps, this also comes down to club level, some pilots can do basic 3D but battle to accurately control a heli hovering to the side. I for one have had to dodge plains, dogs and people in these cases you are forced to manoeuvre the heli to funny angles, not simply perform a safety piro.

How we achieve this I still don’t know but I would rather be safety first


How we achieve this I still don’t know but I would rather be safety first.