To Vikki - From PH school

[Vikki]

RC Helicopter Nose In Hover Lessons

I was following Ground Up and then switched to Learn By Flying method.

During a circuit I will bring the heli to a halt and hover one side or the other in and nose in and then continue my circuit.

Andrew did say that we would find the Raptor FB not as responsive as our FBL electrics and I have to agree. I like FBL for a reason, I just don't seem to get on with flybarred. Not my fault, I'm only too happy that FBL exists for people like me. There must be loads of us that prefer one over the other. I like how responsive my own heli is. Andrew didn't like the way I pulsed the cyclic sticks and with the Raptor he was right but my own heli likes a flick out and back and responds quickly to it. A slight drift is countered by a small quick prod that the heli responds to instantly.

One thing that made me nervous and my bad for not mentioning it to Andrew (due to buddy box buffer) is I don't like hovering so close to myself with a big heli. I found the Raptor 30 with the engine noise quite intimidating with it at head height and about 10-15' away. I'd always been told 20-30' so you didn't get a face full of heli if it went pear shaped. I can hover inverted nose in (but at height, just in case).

I was trying for my lazy eights but I couldn't get that nice turn at the end. I couldn't figure it out and no matter who told me how it should be done I had no success. That's why I wanted lessons in banked turns. To progress my figure eight and circuit flying. I'm more than comfortable with flying the heli nose in and side in.

I wanted someone to look at my banking attempts and tell me what I was doing wrong. It was Mattscupoftes that got me sorted. I wasn't giving any delay between aileron input and elevator input. He cracked it for me.

That's all I wanted. I was comfortable flyinf left and right and keeping the heli in a straight line. I was happy stopping it briefly with one or other side in for a while and doing a hover. I was happy with pausing and turning nose in and pausing for a while before moving on.

What I wasn't happy with was my turns at the ends of my runs. It would either be a banked that became u-turn or I'd just flick the tail 180 or do a stall turn. Or a tail slid and come out backwards then flick the tail to continue forwards.

My hovering at the flight school wasn't very pretty but I didn't feel comfortable with the heli that close to me and I tended toward pushing it away from me. Being that close with a buddy-box is one thing but in the field without is quite another. I prefer 20-30' away if I'm hovering in anything but tail-in, just in case anything goes pear shaped (like my tail getting jammed as has happened).

I'm not an idiot. I wouldn't ask for something that I didn't feel necessary. I was stuck. I needed help. I didn't get it.

People have said lazy 8 comes before nose-in and with lazy eight comes the start of gentle turns and little banks. That is where I was stuck. I don't see what on earth is wrong with asking for help to break that barrier that stopped me progressing my eights in to proper eights (or oval for that matter). Online lessons tend to guide you into lazy eights before nose-in. They say it gets you used to seeing the heli in that orientation. I followed some of those lessons which is why I'm at the stage I'm at now.

Now, I will say this: I was bloody impressed with Andrew's flying ability. The way he could sweep it up and back and flip it around to reposition was damned impressive. There is a man that's very comfortable with the heli in front of him.

[Dan22]

[QUOTE=jimmyhorns;914440]Answer: At no point in a figure of 8 circuit does the heli need to be nose in. It passes you side on, and you turn away from yourself at each end. So there is no nose in part of the circuit.

If you look a the BMFA B cert schedule, when performing a true figure of 8, the heli is as good as nose in at the point of changing direction and requires the same inputs, which gave me the confidence to nail nose in hovering by pulling it straight and slowing it down.
I think also for me i needed to be comfortable with a slow pirouette when hovering, so i could just turn the heli back around to tail in if things became uncomfortable.

Dan.

[Vikki]

Just out of interest,

How many crashes have u had so far ? (vikki and friend)

While learning to hover I had a few. Since then and doing circuits I haven't had a crash for a few weeks now. Had three caused by mechanical failure in the last few weeks. One tail locking up. One bearing burning out and one where the tail just let go on me.

I fly in a field where there are no people and anyone with me knows to watch the heli like a hawk, just in case.

[Mark_T]

I suspect this thread has moved beyond its intended purpose now so I'll get in quick before it is locked

Seems to be two basic approaches.

Small steps, master each one before moving on and hence be in total control and in comfort zone at all times. Always be flying the model not just guiding it, so if you come to a halt at any point in a circuit it is not going to cause you a problem.

Alternatively, get basic hovering skills covered then start into circuits and ff and 'bail-out' to a comfortable position if you have to. Net result is there is a lot of guiding rather than flying going on and stopping at some points in the circuit will result in you needing to go to your 'bail-out' comfort zone, but perhaps more 'fun' for some.

Problem is you can get a school to teach you the first way, but I suspect that few are going to be happy to teach the second way. So if the second approach is your preferred route you probably need to make that very clear to avoid complications if you want to book a lesson with an established school.

Communication would seem to be the fundamental requirement, perhaps on both sides.

[cjcj1949]

There is a big difference between teaching and tuition. Teaching involves a lesson plan and is well prepared. Tuition is individual and responds to what the individual needs. Perhaps the schools should define what they want to provide and pupils also need to know (not that I think this applies in this case) that what they want may not be possible without preparatory work which often involves unlearning bad habits or invalid ideas.

[bulnose]

thanks for the honest reply vikki..

fbl does help u in a hover, i suspect that the instructor was taking control off u just to be on the safe side, especially if u were that close to yourselves and at that height, u did say in last post it felt slightly messy..

the thing with hovering lot and lots it kinda instills it in your brain so u dont have to think about it, it just comes naturaly. its gives instant responce and u give the correct stick input without thinking about it.

Also with having a fast responce heli u give small inputs and correct fast the other way if u have pulled the stick the wrong way, its easy to see instanly its not going the way u want it, again all those hours of hoveing with lower responce makes u know which way to push the stickes without even thinking or slightly giving input, seeing its wrong then correcting the right way..

U would easyly fly flybarred once u have this down to a T im sure.. the heli hangs different but blah whatever

Im sure he wasnt trying to do u over for cash but was honestly trying to make u fly better imo.

[Vikki]

The following video shows where I started to do slower more controlled movement closer to me (less 'big air'). This is quite difficult and is satisfying too. I'm learning the finer points of control. It's not pretty. It's my first or second attempt at it but it is something I am perservering with. Yes, I'll flick to tail-in if I feel I'm losing it, why not? Better than crashing.

My flying 9-8-2012 3 - YouTube

I'm not going to put my FFF stuff up because with Bonce-cam the heli goes to a dot or less to quick.

[highlightshadow]

I will also say that having had a go on a buddly-lead Raptor 30 (a very old and under powered one admittedly) when i tried to fly it to an outsider it would look like i'd never flown a heli before .... the handling characteristics of a heavier nitro raptor 30 and the difference in response on controls was shocking

If i'd have had to do a paid-for lesson on a heli i was so unfamiliar with, in a situation where i'm unsure anyway i'd have had to walk away i think.... its why i've always been reluctant to take lessons even though i'd like to ... the thought of having to learn a very different flight model while being cajoled etc doesn't sit well with me .... i think i'd have to use my own heli .... i'm sure with more experience i'd handle it better but thats the point of a lesson ... when you're not sure or need to push a boundary ... and on an unfamiliar heli that responds both in engine and flight-style would make it 10x harder than otherwise

[nobbycopter]

That's what I concentrated on back in the summer (well it was summer time anyway!!) Vikki as I wanted to pass my A cert and my hovering and slow flight was not good side on.

I found it really helpful (still do) having something on the ground in front of me (I used the white lines in the road where I practise in Hereford) to stop me drifting the heli offline when flying slowly across me. It also gave me a marker when I wanted to turn at the ends as I could see when I was drifting offline. Try taking something you can mark out a line with (football practise cones, red and white striped marking tape etc.) 20ft in front of you (or however far away you are comfortable with) and using that as a guide when flying at walking pace in front of you. You will be amazed how quickly your flying improves and it helps when you want to do banked turns, if you stop the heli coming out of the turn you have the skills to instantly correct it and then start it moving again without having to bring it tail in again and then turning and starting again. Try it next time you're down the FoG

[Mikej]

I suspect this thread has moved beyond its intended purpose now so I'll get in quick before it is locked

Seems to be two basic approaches.

Small steps, master each one before moving on and hence be in total control and in comfort zone at all times. Always be flying the model not just guiding it, so if you come to a halt at any point in a circuit it is not going to cause you a problem.

Alternatively, get basic hovering skills covered then start into circuits and ff and 'bail-out' to a comfortable position if you have to. Net result is there is a lot of guiding rather than flying going on and stopping at some points in the circuit will result in you needing to go to your 'bail-out' comfort zone, but perhaps more 'fun' for some.

Problem is you can get a school to teach you the first way, but I suspect that few are going to be happy to teach the second way. So if the second approach is your preferred route you probably need to make that very clear to avoid complications if you want to book a lesson with an established school.

Communication would seem to be the fundamental requirement, perhaps on both sides.

Mark,

I think that you have nailed it here - I learned with Paul and he most definitely did have a sylabus, after each lesson we would go into the caravan / container and Paul would mark my progress against the lesson sheet so that he could see immediately next time what we had been doing, what had gone well and what had not gone so well. In the early days I went regularly and practiced the things that he suggested between lessons), later on I went less often and would tell him in advance what I wanted to do - one time we had a very similar situation to Andy and Vicki - in this case my flying had gone backwards and we spent the first half of the lesson re-learning some points, but then went on the learn the new stuff.

My lessons with Paul were all very structured with clear lesson plans and progression, and very different to asking someone to help me out with a particular issue like Vicki and Andy wanted, perhaps with hindsight that would have been more readily sorted with a bit of help from someone on here.

Horses for courses I guess, each has their place.

As a slight aside - I'm just learning inverted at the moment, and it is sooooooo much easier with FBL

Cheers,
Mike.

[Vikki]

When I blow a banked turn I don't need to tail-in. I can continue without resorting to that

[highlightshadow]

@mikej - you make a great point .... i think if i went for a lesson i'd be wanting tuition on a single aspect of flight whereas the trainer might be assuming more a structured lesson
Emphasizes the need to discuss at length up-front with the parties involved to ensure expectations on both sides are understood prior to the day

[Vikki]

Did discuss it, at length, got ignored. Rather, I talked, Andrew appeared to listen, then did his own thing.

When I contacted Paul I made it quite plain what we wanted. I should have been told No at that point.

[Lynx.1677]

You don't need to nail nose in at all before trying some sort of circuit. I used to to circuits at the field with the tail always pointing towards me. There is nothing wrong with that, in fact doing them helped me learn nose in. Usual "SaneAdam" reponse there. Lol.

Vikki, save yourself some money and carry on as you are. 130x + all your others (forgot their names) + sim will do you dividends. You're doing well flying wise I think.

[muscleflex]

^^ I agree with Dan - just do what you're doing and fly and have fun! I was stuck doing Hover and nose in for years! I was scared of forward flight!
It was actually Dan's video of his 450 sport in his garden that inspired me to move on from hovering last year! And I tried to copy that video and I have progressed a lot more because of that video!