To Vikki - From PH school

[scoobystig]

Hi Vikki

Steve here, i work for Paul part time instructing, but mainly on customer builds and fleet maitenance

i have started a new thread as i didnt get to the other one before it was locked

FIRST OF ALL these are my opinions and not nessecarily those of the school, i also do not wish this to turn into a slag of the school thread or i will lock it

i just wanted you to know that i was aware of the thread and although Paul does not use forums or the internet really, i have emailed him your thread for feedback

i am sorry that you were disapointed with your time with Andrew, and yes he is a very steady instructor who has earned the nickname "steady Eddie", but as you can appreciete he is correct in pushing you towards orientations and getting them nailed as it pays dividends in the future,

sometimes you just need to come back to the basics, dont forget that as a proffessional school our training is structured to achieve certain things before progressing so as to keep safety in mind and to then form a structured plan for progress, it is very difficult to assess someone in one lesson or so

bear in mind we have alot of people come to the school, claiming i can do this and do that, but truely arent that skilful at the basics
how many people when they had their first driving lesson grabbed the keys and said "right wheres the dual carrageway"

may i suggest that you give paul a ring and discuss this issue, and maybe try a lesson with either him or dave, who would more likely try turns with you, at the end of the day it may be that Andrews technigue is not for you, but please appreciete that for some people he is the ideal instructor, as they want to progress in "his way" so to speak. ie nailing a perfect hover and achieving the A certificate before even worrying about banked circuits

if you would like to discuss this further with me then feel free to PM me and we can discuss,

thanks

[GIXERMAN]

+1 i agree, the basics (bread and butter)is best learnt first, I am self taught and also possibly slower on the uptake than some of the other people I fly with. But I have learnt all my basics and havent become handed either in doing this.threw too mild 3D manoveres, Instructors and pupils are like friends you cant get on with everyone.

Maybe worth having another lesson as as said, or maybe try the other instructor. may be work better

[jph140]

"Andrews technigue is not for you, but please appreciete that for some people he is the ideal instructor

He was for me, taught me an awful lot and I'll still be going back for further lessons. Appreciate that everyone's flying is different and we all have different opinions. :-)

[kroozing]

Well i am having lessons with Jason Platts and i agree with him that because i have tried to learn myself, i have picked up many bad habbits and i am infact steering the heli not controlling it.
+1 for the mastering the basics first (although i still havent got it)
I have not seen the other thread just commenting on the op.

[pug907]

Hi Steve, I was at the lesson with Vikki on Saturday. Andrew's teaching skills and indeed abilities were never an issue with either of us. His technique, although perfectly suitable for absolute beginners, we felt, was a bit demeaning, for want of a better word!!
Vikki discussed, at some length( I did get a word in, honest!!) with Andrew, our current capabilities and flying experience, not vast, but not total noobs!

What was really frustrating was, we weren't allowed to take off or land, and if the heli moved a little too much from where he had put it, and I don't mean about to "go in", we would here those immortal words, "I have control, I'll just bring it back for you". Now before the orientation brigade arrive, I can't think of a single occasion (apart from when a spider went up Vikki's nose) that we were anywhere near a potential disaster. There were a few post in Vikki's thread that appeared to imply that IF neither of us could hold a hover of any sort, in any orientation, we got what was coming to us!! To which we both agree. Both of us can hover in ALL orientations, some better and tidier than others, but the fact remains, we could actually hover, just not on a pin head . It wasn't a case of us showing up, wanting to try inverted funnels backwards, after only ever having made paper planes !!

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but knowing (we told Andrew) that we do in fact fly in "public" places ( only cows for distant company), I would have thought that we would be far safer pilots, if we were taught to perform coordinated turns correctly, or at worst, an assessment of our abilities done, (I assumed that was the point of a buddy lead) and then be told to take a few steps back, or take up lace tatting!! An option not afforded to either of us. I am perfectly aware of the dangers of wrong inputs and they don't care who they attach themselves too, but being able to keep the heli within a 10 inch (I think that was the size) cube, in my opinion, is a little anal to say the least. Had we asked for such tuition, in order to learn the finer art of scale flying, then I can see the point. But to become smoother and inherently safer sports pilots was our aim for the day, an aim too high it seems!

The fact and truth of the matter is, we will still go flying, we will improve, albeit slightly slower it would appear and we won't be returning, or giving any recommendations, which is a shame, as Andrew's skill level and manner are absolutely impeccable. I would like to re-iterate, we have no issues, whether personal or professional, with PH school of flying, we were just not given what we thought we paid for. Vikki simply put our experience into words. Someone in a similar position to us may read it and decide to find an alternative flying school, they may not, but we could just save them the disappointment of not gaining what they expected from their £80, or even given the opportunity. Buddy lead lesson, to my mind, means "try something your not sure of, I have your back" and we can work from there! Sadly, we were, on this occasion mistaken!

Cheers,
Andy

p.s. sorry, just noticed I got the cube size wrong. It was 10 inches, not 10 CM

[scoobystig]

Andy PM Sent

[Mslater]

I'm gonna stick my neck out a bit here because I'm involved with a flying School here. I saw Vikki's original thread and understood why she was dissapointed. Having said that I think you will have a similar experience at most flying schools. You have to trust the instructor, if he thinks you are not ready for move x,y or Z then understand why and work forward. There are no prizes for rushing. If on the other hand you don't trust the instructors judgment then that's a completely separate issue so try someone else as suggested.

But, Andy I think you might have hit the nail on the head in your last comments (Buddy lead lesson) You are either on a buddy lead flying with a mate OR having a lesson there's the difference and probably the root of any mis-understandings.

Really sorry you were disappointed but I bet you learned lots in any case. Keep going for the lessons it will pay off.

[pug907]

I'm gonna stick my neck out a bit here because I'm involved with a flying School here. I saw Vikki's original thread and understood why she was dissapointed. Having said that I think you will have a similar experience at most flying schools. You have to trust the instructor, if he thinks you are not ready for move x,y or Z then understand why and work forward. There are no prizes for rushing. If on the other hand you don't trust the instructors judgment then that's a completely separate issue so try someone else as suggested.

But, Andy I think you might have hit the nail on the head in your last comments (Buddy lead lesson) You are either on a buddy lead flying with a mate OR having a lesson there's the difference and probably the root of any mis-understandings.

Really sorry you were disappointed but I bet you learned lots in any case. Keep going for the lessons it will pay off.

Thanks mslater.
I have complete trust in the instructors I use, whether it be golf, flying whatever. That's their job and they are experts in their field (no pun intended). It was just that, in this case no "let's see where you are" happened. If that's Andrew's approach to teaching, then all well and good, as has been posted above, he has been of great benefit to them and a great many more, I have no doubt!! It was just a case of not matching the pupils ideals to the instructors preferred route! Nothing more, nothing less. We will probably go for some more lessons, but most schools are a fair way away, from what we having managed to so far ascertain. Whatever happens, we will continue to enjoy our flying and we will continue to use the first pack of the day for orientation practice.

Thanks again,
Andy

[n00by]

ie nailing a perfect hover and achieving the A certificate before even worrying about banked circuits

and to pass the A cert u only have to be able to hold the heli in a steady hover in a certain orientation for 5 seconds, he should have maybe tried some lazy eights at least with them or something IMO if their hovering was ok but not perfect.

[scoobystig]

and to pass the A cert u only have to be able to hold the heli in a steady hover in a certain orientation for 5 seconds, he should have maybe tried some lazy eights at least with them or something IMO if their hovering was ok but not perfect.

n00by
i think you're missing the point here no one is debating how Long the hover for the A test is
i mearly made the point that some people like to learn in a regimented fashion
ie perfect the hover in all orientations. Then do their A test and then look at other manoeuvres
others learn in a different way and like try new things quickly
its like reading a good book. Every now and then You skip a few chapters to find out what happens. But sooner or later you have to go back to the earlier chapters to fill in the gaps so it all makes sense
There is no definitive right or wrong in this situation and everyone will have there own opinion
it is clearly a mismatch and mis interpretation between instructor and pupil and neither is really to blame. I have had a good conversation with Andy about this tonight
And this thread was mainly just to let Andy and vikki know that I would be passing their comments and frustrations back to Paul
I am sure that loads of people will have their own opinion on how a flying school should be run or how Andy and vikki should learn how to fly. But I respectfully ask for those comments to be left out of this thread. as I said in the OP I only started this because I didn't get to the earlier thread and I wanted them to know that their frustrations had been heard
thanks

[jimmyhorns]

Im glad this hasnt turned into a slanging match.

There are always two sides to every story, and thats worth bearing in mind.

I take issue with those (including instructors) who think that the hover is the be all and end all, and until you have this 'nailed' you shouldnt move on to other things.

A lot of sport flying is essentially less intense hovering, with a bit of rudder thrown in, and all of this helps with the hover.

I know that I learnt my nose in hover by transitioning from forward flight, into slower and slower forward flight, and into the hover. Forward flight is easy for me, due to my plank background, stick control is second nature.

To the same end there is absolutely nothing wrong with NOT being able to nose in hover, before starting on some basic circuits. Its nice to be able to do it, but you dont NEED it.

Unlike most things where we get tuition, what we work towards here is very subjective. There are no sensible exams IMO, both the A and B actually assess very little of how most of us fly, and so to this end there is no syllabus.

Im not really sure how a lesson is going to help you to hover, other than a few tips on where/what you need to practice. This shouldnt take 2 hours.

If I asked for a lesson to teach me how to do smooth loops, its because I want to learn how to do smooth loops, thats the bit that is important to me. While it would be fine to say that my nose right side in hover isnt quite a strong as my left, it would not be fine to spend two hours of my time and money on this, as this would be a waste of both.

So if Vikki's stated aim was to be better at banked turns, thats what she should have got, even if that might not have been the 'best' thing for her flying. A good instructor should take into account both the real needs and perceived needs of a student, and from the one side (from two people) I have heard it doesnt sound like this happened.

[johnsandywhite]

I agree 100% with what Jimmyhorns says above.

[jimmyhorns]

I agree 100% with what Jimmyhorns says above.

Im going to frame that comment. I dont think anyone has ever 100% agreed with what I say. I dont even 100% agree with what I say

[cjcj1949]

From the teaching I have done I know that everyone learns in different ways. There are also many different skills and I've heard it said that 3D pilots can't hover for toffee. Whether or not that is true I certainly find forward flight easier than hovering and I do not think that hovering accuracy is that closely related to other skills. I don't believe there really are basics to learn except being able to recognize the orientation of the model and being able to make it do what you want in all orientations. It is much easier to do this in forward flight than in the hover as you can see the difference that your control input is making much more easily as the model will move further. It therefore seems perverse to try to do the more difficult manouvers first. If you want to hover accurately in all orientations that is fine, but nose in hovering is a B test manouver not A test. The A test does require coordinated turns and these have to be banked to achieve smooth forward flight in a circular path unless someone wishes to tell Newton that His Laws are not approved by flying schools.

[old gimmer]

If I may relate my experience of 2 lessons that I had not with the Paul Heckles school but another quite well known school for a total beginner I think they are fantastic but if you have any experience they can be very frustrating.
At the time that I booked a lesson my flying ability included hovering in all oriantations circuits left and right landings and autos from both directions and multiple rolls loops and stall turns all from both directions the one thing I was really finding diffficult and expensive was the inverted hover so lessons were booked with the sole aim of mastering this but I spent very little time at what I requested being made to tidy up my circuits and approaches and doing hovering squares etc all this after being told by the instructor at the start of the first lesson how well I flew.
The outcome was that I bought a Blade MCPX and mastered it that way