Judging Comps ??????

[Leigh Beaumont]

My view my opinion!
Most shocking was western part Air this year, saw stunning flying going on all weekend and pilots came no where and other pilots that crashed came quite high up board how i asked myself, i was there all weekend and watched this one kid fly floorless smooth exciting and pulled new stuff out bag and i didnt even hear his name at trophy time not even a pro but close to there level, so frankly im confused. Example Steve Gerrard flew awesome in my eyes but didnt make top 3, im no judge but that kid can fly and a real crowd pleaser.

ive had ago at 1 comp might do another but prob not unless i change how i feel, i enjoy watching others more
been to a few comps over years but thats nothing to do with it Dave, I no good smooth controlled flying when i see it and I also no loose uncontrolled flying also and seen this score high how?!

[Swashbuckler]

I wouldn't go as far as to say its fixed. The judges (who volunteer their time freely and have a crappy job to do) are pretty impartial I feel, but when it comes to freestyle it's like the turner prize, how do you say this piece of art has more value than that piece of art? The crowd are not impartial though, and they affect the judging. The crowd are influenced by many things.
What annoys me most is pilots deliberately getting themselves entered into a lower category than they should be, so that they can win. They do this by choosing sets that are beneath their real level. They enter grass roots when they know some of 2K+ manos of 3dx/3dchamps or 3dmasters are how they fly all the time. Same happens when you have intermediate and expert, or expert and masters. It's about sponsorship. It's about vanity. It's about doing what you can to get what you want. It happens all the time where you have more than one level in the same competition, best example is golf. People lie about their handicap so they can win the local club competition, it might only get them a few drinks in the bar and how nasty those drinks must taste but still they do it.
Nevermind though it's all just for fun..... right?

[Leigh Beaumont]

Also the word freestyle!! Sure FREESTYLE should mean freestyle not well those moves you pulled are not scored because there not from the sets as we were told by one of the judges, looked good but cant be scored because there not in list, surely freestyle needs to be changed to mean sets in any order or flowing from one to the other nothing free about that judging

[Stuart]

Also the word freestyle!! Sure FREESTYLE should mean freestyle not well those moves you pulled are not scored because there not from the sets as we were told by one of the judges, looked good but cant be scored because there not in list, surely freestyle needs to be changed to mean sets in any order or flowing from one to the other nothing free about that judging

Have to agree its all in the moment nothing preplanned or set pieces pre stitched to look like FS it should be out the bag.

[kamikaze]

I can see the different points of view but I think the main point is being missed. The key to any comp is reading the rules carefully and flying to score the highest number of points you can. Air was a good example in that the scoring gave alot of points for entertainment value so those that took a chance and went either through the trees or in some cases into them scored highly in entertainment points. The few that crashed were scored up until that point and half a very technical flight is going to outscore a 3 minute hover.
Same problems with freestyle! How do you decide if a flights been practised or put together on the fly? Freestyle has always been a round in which you fly any way you want but to judge whether it's improvised or practised would be impossible.
Lastly the judging- It always amazes me that the judges always end up in the firing line,I'm surprised they still volounteer. While I can see that a judge might have one of his mates in the comp I can't see the others going along with it. It's also strange that most complaints over scoring come from spectators rather than pilots and for those pilots who think they should have come higher up the table than they did I would say shrug it off and fly better next time. After all it depends on who you fly against on the day.

[Captain Crash]

Just my 2p for what it's worth, firstly the judges IMO have a terrible job, they can never do right and will always be criticised if people feel they should have come better than they have, judging is subjective and always will be, what floats one judges boat another may hate, last year I took part in the MK grass Roots, did my sets and I think came 9th in that round, not bad IMO with wind, afterwards judges gave constructive advice, really felt this was a great thing and in the second round really took on board what they'd said and tried to put into practice, in fairness felt I did do a great round for me anyway and when the scores came out I went down to 10/11 I think, I asked the judges as I did in all honesty feel a bit dejected but after speaking felt they were completely right, they agreed that I had indeed taking the advice and indeed upped my game for the second round, but so had everyone else hence the slip, many many factors are involved in your eventual score, at the recent Air event Rachel had IMO an exceptional flight on the second day and again IMO would have won but sadly the guy who did win was just so much better on the day, that is in no way detracting from Rachel's flight which was incredible, in terms of people thinking events are fixed, I think this Is very hurtful towards the judges who give up their time for free, at the champs last year I was speaking to a friend who had been both competitor and judge and said how I felt that when Duncan competes it's a done deal to win, he went on to explain that the reason Duncan wins is that he is "that" good. I sat and watched his flight and was mesmerised by his flying and afterwards conceded that he was indeed brilliant.
I think people are missing the point of competitions, they are meant to be fun and not taken too seriously, come on guys/gals, lighten up and just enjoy them, if you don't enjoy them then don't bother

[rachel]

Ok firstly I posted this for a couple of reasons , one I just wanted to know how to improve my flying in competitions , and secondly I am not the only one who doesn't understand judging .
i really though it would be a good helpful thing to post ,....... I must be so nieave :-(

In no way is this a pop at judging or judges !!!!!!!!!!!! So please don't turn it in to that they Arnt paid, turn up watch us do our thing and at my level are usually helpful and full of advice ( I usually ignore the quit your poo advice lol )
Its not ,and never was a question about whether judging is fair / biased / right but it was / is about understanding how a comp is judged so I can improve , and how others who ask me can improve too.

If you want to know whether one pilot is judged unfairly then start your own thread !!!!!!

I can see why , very sadly some who could help by posting , now don't or won't , the net gain is actually a loss ! Our loss as a community , information that would have benefitted all won't come because it's going to be turned or twisted.

I will say this isn't aimed at any posters in this thread directly so please don't feel anyone needs to defend themselves , just understand you / we sometimes need to remain silent and listen to learn how things work .

I hope this makes sense ??!
Xxx Rachel

[Swashbuckler]

No matter what you post or how you do it Rachel there's always going to be a percentage that disagree - that is what a public forum is all about. Sometimes you thrash things out and people can see a different point of view that they never considered before. Sometimes they don't. If people don't accept that, then they don't visit a public forum because its a worthless endeavour for them. It keeps nobody away that understands this. You have to accept that some people who have knowledge who could help with a post or two, do not like the public forum environment. So unless you have full time moderators that edit every possibly immflamatory remark, this is the way it will be. There has been next to no criticism of the judges, more the ability for them or anyone to come out with judgement that everyone agrees with when "freestyle" is involved. And I'm not posting this in my defence, if people disagree with me on here I don't take it personally, I have even changed my opinions on matters/ people before when they post something that I had not considered, or even knew about. So don't get upset because it has happened in one of your threads, on the contrary be pleased that you have posted something that people from opposite standpoints feel strongly enough to post about.
Anyway as I said before you have improved at a pace that somebody your age in full time employment should be reasonably happy with. Keep doing the same. Kids improve quicker because they have the time and a vaccuus brain to make new neural pathways in. And yes that is a dig at younger pilots, the little bassers. I'm old its my right to be jealous. It's their right to wish I'd hurry up and croak. You want to know how competitions are judged, so do other other people who have posted, but apparently for different reasons. I went a bit off topic with my pop about unsportsmanlike competitors, but it doesn't warrant a whole other thread, as nobody has mentioned it or agreed with me I guess I'm in a minority of 1, which is fine.

[pgkevet]

I was in a (non-heli) competition some years ago where, after the performances, the renowned judge sat all the competitors in the auditorium and got them to repeat their performances while he coached and explained and advised on their strengths and weaknesses. Brilliant.. we all learned from his talks with the other teams as well as our own critique.
Now that was a rare judge and true educator who was passionate about his discipline and really prepared to put himself out for his game.

Rachel is correct in that unless you have a coach who is part of a consistent judging panel then there is too much element of guesswork in knowing what needs improving. I'm sure I'm not the only one who shies away from flying some patterns because either I foolishly think i can do that one well enough or don't like that one or it's too crash-risky

[Leigh Beaumont]

If im wrong im wrong im just saying how I've felt at comps maybe im on my own, in so many sports out thre judges dont get paid, Which has nothing to do with it does it? but if you judge anything you yourself will be judged on your decision thats life. So if your saying my comments upset judges then really they shouldn't be judging as think about all pilots out there that fly there heart and soul out and dont make top 5 think how down beat they feel!

Im not having a pop or slagging anyone am I? Just voicing my view, and yes ive started my own thread and been slated not even got a straight answer, did i cry no i just got with it, water off ducks back.

But instead of people thinking really people feel that way, no your wrong stop having a pop at judges. Really really!!!

[rachel]

If im wrong im wrong im just saying how I've felt at comps maybe im on my own, in so many sports out thre judges dont get paid, Which has nothing to do with it does it? but if you judge anything you yourself will be judged on your decision thats life. So if your saying my comments upset judges then really they shouldn't be judging as think about all pilots out there that fly there heart and soul out and dont make top 5 think how down beat they feel!

Im not having a pop or slagging anyone am I? Just voicing my view, and yes ive started my own thread and been slated not even got a straight answer, did i cry no i just got with it, water off ducks back.

But instead of people thinking really people feel that way, no your wrong stop having a pop at judges. Really really!!!

I did say I am not having a go at anyone , I just feel its going a little away from where I wanted it to be.....
i wanted to help myself and others understand how to improve their scores ,not criticise judging at all.

Its very hard to get sponsored pilots or judges to reply to a post for two reasons , some are above themselves, some are just fed up with being shot down when they are just trying to help, and of course some just say xh and z because their sponsored by xh and z .

Honestly I just wanted to understand / help

The good news is a judge has offered to coach me , it means traveling and fuel but I will do it and as long as its ok with that judge I will repost what I learn .

Xxx Rachel

[Leigh Beaumont]

Rachel id like to no what you find out b interesting then you put into practise see how you do

And yes there are sponsored pilots above them selves NOT ALL before i get slated!! I was at master and was listening to a very well known pilot/ judge put on a sales pitch to a guy! And after the guy had left I spoke to said pilot about what he had said as my same product dont do what he said they do, and instead of him saying strange get it checked he said no your wrong its your equipment, but if he was sponsored by the makers of my equipment his response i feel would of been reverse, now all i wanted to find out how come mine didnt do what his did after 200 plus times of use, and mine being brand shiney new! Its great and works well but does not do what said pilot stated

[ktargett]

Hi,

If you do a search for "3D Masters Judges Guide" this will bring up a document that was written by a number of the 3D Masters judges, which is sent out to all pilots every year. This explains in quite a lot of detail what we look for in 3D Masters and 3DX competitions.

In set maneouvres poor calling is normally taken into account in Grassroots level, but not so much in Champs and not at all in 3D Masters. These are all about reading the description properly and making sure you fly the maneouvre as described. As mentioned entry, exit height/speed/position, centering and shape are critical. Piro loops are a classic where too many pilots pull the heli up through the maneouvre, then essentially piro flip at the top before coming down, this leads to a non-round, non-central maneouvre which isn't really as described therefore scoring badly. If you are in doubt of the description of the maneouvre then ask the question well beforehand, rather than practicing the maneouvre incorrectly.

In freestyle the main mistake a lot of people make is repetitition as mentioned. This can be exactly the same maneouvre lots of times or very similar maneouvres with the same element built in, ie all right hand piroueting or all tic-toc. New maneouvres score highly as an element of creativity, especially if well presented and accurately positioned. If it is hard to work out what you have just attempted it is unlikely to score well. New maneouvres don't just have to be for the likes of Kyle Dahl though, there are lots of ways to create your own maneouvre with some very simple elements, but when presented well can score highly. A string of set maneouvres is definetely not what the judges are looking for as this is very dull to watch. It may score highly on technical mark, but low mark on others. Low flying scores well when flown accurately, but not if it looks scrappy. Far too high and it will score very low. Use of airspace is an easy mark to get, but just doing a large loop, or flying a long way out to the side and doing a fast fly past is just wasting time.

Immediate judges feedback is very useful, but can only work at the smaller competitions due to time pressures. All judges are open to questions when the round is over, but it can be very hard to remember specifics of every flight. Most judges write some form of notes, even it is just a list of T (technical) R (repeat) etc to give an idea of scoring. The scores are also broken down into the marked elements, which can usually be requested by each pilot after the competition. This can be the best way of determening the elements you can improve on.

At the end of the day it is about a well presented interesting flight to watch with lots of variety. In general the judges scores come out very similar to each other within each competition, which is checked during the competition to make sure there are no errors or inconsistencies.

Regards

Kevin

[Captain Crash]

I was in a (non-heli) competition some years ago where, after the performances, the renowned judge sat all the competitors in the auditorium and got them to repeat their performances while he coached and explained and advised on their strengths and weaknesses. Brilliant.. we all learned from his talks with the other teams as well as our own critique.
Now that was a rare judge and true educator who was passionate about his discipline and really prepared to put himself out for his game

Now as much as I think this would be a great idea and I'm sure to
some degree the judges would happily do this at a time convenient to them and possibly a cost (lessons etc.) this would create the scenario I said earlier with myself, so for instance 10 of us do a comp, we each place within that 10, the judges each give us a session telling us how we can improve our scores which we all take on board and improve(across the board) we go compete again having all put into practice what we've just learnt from the judges, how would that change the standings at the results???? 1st place would have improved so would be 1st again and so on and so on, if somebody cocks up or crashes, this would be the only thing to change things?? Or am I being too simplistic?

I could go out practice every day tirelessly, improve beyond all recognition, enter a comp and do crap because everyone else had done the same, the only way I could almost ascertain a win would be now eentering say a grass roots or inters level event when I knew my flying was of a champs quality, which I'm sure most would agree would then be a hollow victory !

[Mark_T]

I could go out practice every day tirelessly, improve beyond all recognition, enter a comp and do crap because everyone else had done the same...

Welcome to the world of the Japanese National Rugby squad

The answer though I guess is that not everyone is prepared to put the effort in and not everyone has the skill to improve beyond a certain level so as you continue to improve and eliminate the basic problems like lack of content and repetition you will leave some of the cohort behind.

In the end though it is a competition and someone has to come in first place while everyone else will be behind them so that isn't going to change.

I was listening to some comments on TV the other night about the psychological side of preparing for the Olympics and one of the athletes put it very well, he said that you can't control the weather, the venue, the crowd or the other competitors, you can only control what you do, so focus on that and make what you do the very best that you are capable of then see where that gets you. Worrying about everyone else just takes your focus away from where it needs to be.