BMFA insurance

[Mslater]

also you have personal injury insurance whilst carrying out any modeling task
a chap I know got paid out for cutting his hand whilst building a plank and was signed off work for a couple of weeks

I can't find that bit in the details I have, are you certain ?

[electricsceadu]

look on the full cert it will give the personal accident details
loss of hand/limb etc

not many know they have it

[Mslater]

look on the full cert it will give the personal accident details
loss of hand/limb etc

not many know they have it

Found it, covers you as long as you are not at fault. The only situation I can think of is a mechanical failure of some sort.

[Mark_T]

Also it only covers death or permanent disablement as far as I know?

Not sure how something that got someone signed off for a couple of weeks would have qualified?

[electricsceadu]

Also it only covers death or permanent disablement as far as I know?

Not sure how something that got someone signed off for a couple of weeks would have qualified?

a pay out as any personal accident ins
but don't forget the injury to the correct doctor will have caused a life long problem ie numb part of the hand
i don't know what the pay out was, more than likely only a few quid

[milly0812]

This is still a massive grey area and the OPs question about flying in a park is still not clear. If there are no signs restricting flying then is that "permission to fly" How many people make it "unsafe to fly" ? there just seems to be so many holes and I for one am still unsure if its ok to fly at a park, I do sometimes as Im sure many who dont belong to a club do as well. So does having the insurance ease any guilt or make us feel better about flyin in these places ?

[Mslater]

Reading through Manny's pages on the southern BMFA website it is quite clear that the insurance payout is far from an automatic process. As long as you admit liability and are not flying illegally then the payout would be made. Hopefully he won't mind me pasting it in here...

It is clear that there are many important benefits to being a member of the National Governing Body for model flying of which one of the most significant is the insurance cover provided to protect members should they be involved in an incident.

The way in which the insurance works is one of the largest areas of misunderstanding and despite a number of articles already being published on the subject I regularly receive queries, and hear lots of misquotes and inaccurate information.

The aim of this article is to summarise the way in which the insurance works, it may not make for riveting reading, but I would suggest that you stick with it as it is an important part of your membership package.

The first and most important point to remember is that the primary function of the insurance is to protect the insured BMFA member in the event of a claim being made against them following an incident. If a model flyer were to be found responsible for an incident and carried no insurance, then they would be personally liable for any damages or costs awarded under the jurisdiction of a civil court and could stand to loose everything, this has happened. The process following an incident is described below.

When a BMFA member is involved in an incident, the first thing he should do is to contact the BMFA office and request an incident report form (this procedure is covered in the Members Handbook and I would suggest that you take a look at pages 8, 9 and 10, the first couple of paragraphs on 8 sum up the basic principle of the policy, the Handbook is also available to download at British Model Flying Association - Resources - Handbook)

This form should be completed accurately and honestly and returned to the office (if the incident is damage to property then a cheque to cover the £50.00 excess is required, if it is injury to a third party there is no excess) this form notifies us and the insurers that there is potentially a claim coming from a third party.

At this stage nothing more will happen until the third party makes a statement of claim against the insured member, it is this that triggers the insurance into action on behalf of the insured member.

What happens next varies depending on what the member has put on the form. If the information on the form clearly identifies the member as eing at fault (e.g. I flew through the sun and then applied an incorrect control input, it was my fault that the model hit Fred Blogg’s car) then there is a very good chance that the insurers will pay out as the pilot is clearly liable.

However if the form indicates that the pilot had done everything in his power to ensure the safety of the flight and in the section that asks for the cause of the accident the pilot has written “I don’t know, it wasn’t my fault” or “unidentified interference” then the insurers will defend this position and the onus is then on the third party to convince the insurer otherwise before they will consider any payout.

If there is a dispute between the third party solicitors and the insurers on a settlement, then it will be referred to a civil court who will make the decision on where the legal liability for the incident rests, this is an important point as you need to be clear that we are talking about legal liability as defined under UK law.

The insured member will have very little involvement in this process other than to pass on any correspondence received from the third party, their insurers or their solicitors to the BMFA office. Remember the BMFA insurers are acting on your behalf and will generally not require your input after the initial form filling (they may occasionally contact you for further information or to clarify details on the form).

From this you will see that there will inevitably be times where a third party does not receive a payout for damage or injury caused by a model aircraft because no legal liability is proven on the part of the pilot, however the vitally important point is that whichever way the case goes the insured member is protected, either there will be no liability established and hence no payout, or liability will be
proven against the pilot and the insurance will respond on his behalf. This is the way in which all liability cover operates.

As a point of interest the third party liabilities portion of your car insurance works in exactly the same way, your insurers would never pay out to a third party unless liability had been established on your part, the only difference is in accidents involving two vehicles somebody is always responsible, but again it would be down to a civil court to establish who (in reality the two insurance companies tend to fight it out between them as it is much cheaper).

You will note from your policy documents (and the Handbook) that “member to member cover” is included in the BMFA policy. This means that one member is able to make a claim against another member following an incident; most policies would not allow this and specifically preclude members of the same organisation or club from claiming against each other (this cover is added as an extension on our policy).

The process for member to member claims is exactly the same and still relies on liability being proven on the part of the insured.

People naturally assume that because they are a BMFA member and the person flying the model is a BMFA member that they will receive an “automatic payout” if (for example) their vehicle is damaged at the flying field, but no insurance works in this way.

As you can see the important function of the insurance is to protect you the member, in circumstances where a third party makes a claim against you. The cover provided is extremely broad, however as with any policy there are certain exclusions to the cover and you should take a few moments to familiarise yourself with these (you can find these on your membership documents).

If you are unfortunate enough to be involved in an incident when you are flying remember the following points.

Stay calm
Never admit liability to the third party
Exchange contact details with the third party
Remain civil and polite
Refer them to the BMFA office if they require further information
Contact the office and request an incident report form at the earliest opportunity
Complete the form honestly and accurately
If you are unsure how to complete the form contact the office for assistance and guidance
Return completed form to BMFA with cheque for policy excess where required
Forward on any correspondence from the third party to the BMFA office

Manny Williamson
Development Officer
British Model Flying Association
0116 2440028
admin@bmfa.org

[sam cooper s]

Hey Gaz I personally wouldn't feel comfortable flying in a public park at all, there is just too much of a risk of injuring someone or a dog running up to say hello to your heli. Depends on whether or not there are actually any other people about I suppose, but when you are concentrating hard on your flying you don't want to be worrying about some member of the public coming up to you and distracting you.

You would be much better off coming down to the BMAC field, you can fly there safely and you are fully covered proving you stay in the designated hovering area. When you are feeling better and able to get out let me know and I will come to the field with you if you like, it's usually pretty quiet during the week, and if anyone is there they will probably be flying fixed wing or heli on the main patch anyway, the hovering area is usually free.

Cheers Sam

[Mark_T]

As long as you admit liability and are not flying illegally then the payout would be made.

Do note this bit from the bottom of the post : 'Never admit liability to the third party'

This goes for your BMFA insurance, your car insurance and pretty much any other similar insurance.There is no automatic assumption of liability simply because you were the one holding the transmitter at the time.

We've all seen those inexplicable crashes where the flight is proceeding normally then something goes wrong for no apparent reason and the heli goes in.

In those cases if you were flying in the right bits of airspace and yet still somehow the heli manages to crash on someone's parked car, it is unlikely that the insurance would pay out.

Trying to admit liability where the facts are otherwise can put you in a tricky position with the insurer so don't do it unless it really was your fault and for example you 'dumb thumbed' it.

[debrooker]

And the old chestnut - do Bye-Laws need to be displayed at an entrance to a park to be enforceable. I know the parks around me have specific laws prohibiting flying, yet there are no displayed Bye-laws at any of the entrances.

[Mark_T]

And the old chestnut - do Bye-Laws need to be displayed at an entrance to a park to be enforceable. I know the parks around me have specific laws prohibiting flying, yet there are no displayed Bye-laws at any of the entrances.

I know it has been posted several times that they must be displayed to be in force. I've never been sure about this either, as part of the process for validating a bye-law involves publishing them to the local community in a recognised manner, often a local newspaper or other similar method, so in this way it is considered that people have already been made aware of the bye-laws.

Either way though, if you already know it is not permitted then I guess you personally would have to avoid flying there as you already know you do not have the permission of the land owner.

It would be good to get a definitive answer on this one though.

[Big A]

Do note this bit from the bottom of the post : 'Never admit liability to the third party'

This goes for your BMFA insurance, your car insurance and pretty much any other similar insurance.There is no automatic assumption of liability simply because you were the one holding the transmitter at the time.

We've all seen those inexplicable crashes where the flight is proceeding normally then something goes wrong for no apparent reason and the heli goes in.

In those cases if you were flying in the right bits of airspace and yet still somehow the heli manages to crash on someone's parked car, it is unlikely that the insurance would pay out.

Trying to admit liability where the facts are otherwise can put you in a tricky position with the insurer so don't do it unless it really was your fault and for example you 'dumb thumbed' it.

The point about admitting liability or not is important, never admit liability to the third party, however when it comes to filling the form in that goes to the BMFA fill it in 100% honestly!! If its your fault say so!!

[scoobystig]

i fly in the park behind my office, but always have a spotter with me looking for other people and dogs approaching
mind you its normally empty anyway

[PeteStewardson]

And the old chestnut - do Bye-Laws need to be displayed at an entrance to a park to be enforceable. I know the parks around me have specific laws prohibiting flying, yet there are no displayed Bye-laws at any of the entrances.

The park just around the corner from us doesn't display anything, but the bigger park in Woodley have signs up at the entrances saying no model aircraft flying. Shame as that park would be safter to fly than the one near me as it's huge. I've found other spots to fly instead as you just can't rely on people to have any common sense. As shown by the guy that set his bulldog on my heli when I was hovering...

[Stuart]

Bye laws can be changed many laws would have be put inplace due to circumstances decades ago, so if you feel strongly about it build a case and goto your council. Especially if your local parish council supports it should get changed.