BMFA 'achievement' grades and fbl

[gorber]

I didn't want to hijack the thread here http://www.rcheliaddict.co.uk/beastx/50900-omg-omg.html so I am starting a new one.

When I read things like this, it really makes me wonder whether or not these systems should be allowed when taking BMFA 'A' and 'B' tests. I personally don't think they should.

I have never flown fbl and took it at face value when people say all they do is replace the flybar, but surely, reading the thread above, it is more than that.

I have never heard of a flybarred heli just sitting there, hands off, in gusty winds.

It is also the reason that I am delaying going flybarless. The main attraction of this hobby is the challenge, and I want to know that it is me that has overcome the challenge of flying straight, not a piece of electronic equipment.

I know that tail gyros are also flight aids, but there is a balance here, and not needing your hands to hover is surely way too far over the line.

Am I alone in thinking this??

Andrew

[Smoothound]

Probably

Purists would feel even sticking a 154 on a Heli as stepping over the line

Then again where do you start or stop? 27Mhz? 35Mhz? 2.4Ghz? Collective pitch? Proportional control? Digital Servos? Governors? Carbsmarts? Regulators? Lipos?

It's never ending!

[tonystevens]

I have flown flybarless and couldnt beleive how much easier flying the heli was,loved it and am planning to try it on my helis soon as i can afford to but i have to agree with you here my B-test would have been alot easier if id have taken it with a fbl heli for sure

[gorber]

Well, you certainly stop before you get to things that have absolutely no autonomous input to controlling the heli. Lipos and 2.4Ghz are clearly not aiding the pilot in actually controlling the heli.

I see the argument with gyros but, like I said, there is a balance.

[Paulice]

Watching this topic for a while before i say my bit

[ipitombi]

When you trying to fly inverted or doing 3D stunts,, And you make a mistake??
They still hit the ground and break up,,, so what is wrong with a little
help with the hovering...

[tonystevens]

Im not saying the whole test would be easier btw but the hovering manouvers definately would

[gorber]

When you trying to fly inverted or doing 3D stunts,, And you make a mistake??
They still hit the ground and break up,,, so what is wrong with a little
help with the hovering...

Most of the flying test is hovering. There are no inverted sections on it.

I am not slating the use of these systems in general flying, just that they give too much of an advantage in the A and B test manouvres (with the probable exception of ff in the B test).

After all, they are 'achievement' schemes.

When I get my A and B tests completed, I will probably go down the fbl route myself, but in the knowledge that I, myself, am able to control the heli. And I fully recognise that flying 3d requires a hell of a lot of skill either with or without fbl systems.

[Tim Procter]

Im not saying the whole test would be easier btw but the hovering manouvers definately would

Tony

If you or I watched a pilot taking his test with a FBL heli I would certainly know whether he is capable of flying the "B" test manouvre's hovering or not.

They are certainly a help with less inputs needed but certainly not a magic wand either.

[waveydavey]

I think I dis-agree. Most of us take an A or B with a Trex 600 or similar, a machine designed to be skittish and nervy. A 3D machine. A well setup flybared machine would behave just as well if most of us knew how to do it. You would need a setup like F3C to replicate, it's just our little box of tricks takes the hard work out of it.

I don't think it gives you an unfair advantage as you still have to fly it, there is an awful lot to getting the most out of a flybarless setup and you have to be able to fly in order to do this. Saying that the Beast does fly out of the box very well.

[3dx]

Thing is,what is the BMFA's stance on this?
Is there a ruling that states you can't use a fbl system for the A or B cert??

[Milamber]

I am neither for nor against "artificial aids" to assist with flying an RC Heli. Although not "the norm", autopilots are to be found in the real world of rotary flight, so why not in a replica. If this is acceptable, then surely the use of the same technology in pod 'n' boom format cannot be frowned upon. I have a 'B' Cert for planks and my 'A' Cert for rotary wings both gained *without* artificial aids ie no tail gyro on my heli. Today, I would not dream of flying without a tail gyro and am waiting for *much* better weather before trying FBL. I also have NO designs on 3D. Regards.

Maurice.

[pchristy]

Since the "A" and "B" tests are, according to the committee that sets them, purely a measure of personal achievement, and not intended to certify any particular level of competence (yes, I know!), then by making life easier for yourself during the test, the only person you are "cheating" is yourself.

Personally, I think all the tests should be taken with fixed pitch i/c powered machines, 4 channel radios and no gyros!

But that's another story.....

[moyesboy]

You can create a flybar heli that will hover rock steady and fly the B test manoevres very smoothly. this is what f3C machines are. however its not the sort of machine that many heli fliers are after because they like to fly aggressive 3D manoevres (even before their B test).
For me, all I did with my trex600 for the B test was:
Fit the upper arms onto the "stable3D" hole in the flybar carrier (more stable flybar ratio, so its more stable in the hover).
Fit std black raptor paddles (borrowed on the day, slower cyclics, more stable hover).
Fly in idleup1 with a lowish head speed (1800).

I reckon if you borrowed an F3C .90 size machine from one of the top f3C pilots then it might seem just as easy to fly the B test manoevres with as a flybarless machine.
However it would be a lot easier and cheaper to set up a trex600 flybarless to do the same job!


The object of the test, in my book, should not be for the model to fly with incredible smoothness and precision - but to demonstrate the pilot can place the model accurately enough to be safe through all the required orientations, and fly the manoevres without any wrong control inputs.

Having gyros on the cyclic will make the heli sit where you put it, but it won't mask any wrong control inputs at all, probably make them more noticeable in fact. If you can't judge how far away your model is, or fly an accurate manoevre, it won't help with that either.

The sort of waywardness many flybar helis have, such as screwing out of loops or turning tail toward you while you do side on tick tocks, are way beyond the realms of the B test manoevres, but this is what the flybarless system corrects!

The phase and interraction issues that real helis have, to varying degrees, are never reproduced on the SIM. I've only had a brief play with a flybarless 550 set up for a beginner, but I'm betting the flybarless helis fly more like the sim, which makes a big difference to those who struggle for stick time.
(Like Tim (busterboy), he doesn't get out flying much you know...so he needs flybarless )

[gorber]

I would argue that the Beast x as described in the thread above, does not conform to the allowed systems. They are only allowed as a replacement for a flybar, not excessive auto stabilisation.

If I were an examiner, I would fail a pilot that came to me with a heli that sat still in gusty winds as it is not merely replacing the flybar, it is flying the heli for them.