Does the 'sale of goods' act not apply to this hobby??

[gorber]

I have just got off the phone to a well known RC heli retailer who supplied my YS 91SRS engine. I won't say who it is at this stage. Anyway, I sent it to them around 2 -3 weeks ago because it is broken, a complete lemon, but I won't go into the specifics of that here.

They sent it to Probuild to look at, which as far as I am concerned is nothing to do with me as my contract is with them, not Probuild.

It appears that Probuild are returning it to them with a demand for £150 (details of what that is for are sketchy because engine is in transit and they don't keep records).

The person I was speaking to implied that I was to pay this charge, although they were not to charge a margin.

I made it clear that I shouldn't be paying anything at all because the engine was faulty, and then got into a discussion on whether there was any proof either way that the engine was faulty when it was supplied.

Doesn't the sale of goods act place the burden of proof on the retailer, and not the consumer? And why does it seem to be accepted that the sale of goods act is somehow not applicable to this hobby?

People write on here in absolute amazement each time a retailer actually abides by laws relating to consumer protection. How many times do people go on about how Horizon Hobby have replaced a faulty receiver "FREE OF CHARGE!!" as though they are doing the customer a favour rather than just choosing not to break the law?

I haven't said who the supplier is (in this thread, at least) because they may yet do the correct thing, and are otherwise really good, but I fear a protracted battle coming up with them, which is not what I want and really shouldn't be having to have.

I suspect this culture comes from the way the likes of Ripmax and Probuild treat their outlet customers, but that shouldn't mean we just accept it.

Andrew

[jamiem]

I think you may have jumped the gun a touch and should have waited at least to see what the charge is for and why you have to pay it before posting about it.

With regards to your comments about horizon hobby; they are a total exception. They replace and repair broken receivers FOC regularly, a lot of which are clearly crash damaged, and a lot of which are way outside of the 1 year warranty. That's called going way above and beyond the call of duty.

Hopefully you will get your engine issue sorted

[Janek]

Name the Name.......

Even if they do belatedly decide to OBEY the law of the land, they still deserve to be named.

[Swashbuckler]

Had a similar experience with my first 56. I knew the retailer personally and he returned the engine to Probuild for me. They took weeks to look at it then returned it with the same fault, we returned it again and this time they returned it fixed only for the conrod to snap in the first flight. We returned it again and this time they said it had been modified! and run lean, and told my retailer that he probably wouldn't be able to sell YS engines anymore because he should have checked it and decided that I had done something to it (which I hadn't) and not sent it back to them. Now I don't know what is going on with yours but if Probuild treated your retailer like they treated mine they could be just going along with it. I put my foot down and they repaired the engine and rang my retailer up and told him that my engine was now fine and they had run several gallons through it but I could have a new one if I wanted. I of course took the new one and have been very happy with it. Unfortunately in the meantime I had to buy another engine to keep my machine in the air. I don't like naming names and I'm not trying to stir, just relaying my experience exactly as it happened. It is my opinion that Probuild take too long with engine servicing and are quite likely to try and blame the customer. I'm sure it is difficult selling engines and no doubt people try it on when they have simply tuned the engine wrong. But there are undoubtedly engines which are as you say lemons right from the start.

[gorber]

I think you may have jumped the gun a touch and should have waited at least to see what the charge is for and why you have to pay it before posting about it.

With regards to your comments about horizon hobby; they are a total exception. They replace and repair broken receivers FOC regularly, a lot of which are clearly crash damaged, and a lot of which are way outside of the 1 year warranty. That's called going way above and beyond the call of duty.

Hopefully you will get your engine issue sorted

Well, no, because I was making a general point about the hobby and I didn't name the specific retailer because it hasn't been resolved yet.

What HH do should not be the exception, it should be the norm. Everybody else is breaking the law.

[Rotorhead]

I have just got off the phone to a well known RC heli retailer who supplied my YS 91SRS engine. I won't say who it is at this stage. Anyway, I sent it to them around 2 -3 weeks ago because it is broken, a complete lemon, but I won't go into the specifics of that here.

They sent it to Probuild to look at, which as far as I am concerned is nothing to do with me as my contract is with them, not Probuild.

Correct, it is, and if they try to play games just tell them you will get trading standards involved if necessary.

Unfortunately this is a very common attitude with hobby shops, some are trying to avoid doing their legal duty.

It appears that Probuild are returning it to them with a demand for £150 (details of what that is for are sketchy because engine is in transit and they don't keep records).

The person I was speaking to implied that I was to pay this charge, although they were not to charge a margin.

If it was definately faulty, do not take this at all, get trading standards involved right away, if it was faulty then its ultimately the manufacturer who should be out of pocket, and the model shop has no right to demand money, all they should be doing is either refunding the purchace price, or swapping it for a replacement, anything other than those two options is between the manufacturer and the shop.

I made it clear that I shouldn't be paying anything at all because the engine was faulty, and then got into a discussion on whether there was any proof either way that the engine was faulty when it was supplied.

They cant really make an arguement over that, they are trying it on, sure some people do wreck engines because they run them way too lean and try to return them, but its rare and usually obvious once the engine is stripped down.

Doesn't the sale of goods act place the burden of proof on the retailer, and not the consumer? And why does it seem to be accepted that the sale of goods act is somehow not applicable to this hobby?

It is on them not you, if they can prove it then thats that, but there is no way they can prove it, and to trading standards or a small claims court it will just sound like them trying to get out of the situation and hand you the bill.

People write on here in absolute amazement each time a retailer actually abides by laws relating to consumer protection. How many times do people go on about how Horizon Hobby have replaced a faulty receiver "FREE OF CHARGE!!" as though they are doing the customer a favour rather than just choosing not to break the law?

Correct, it is odd that, if its faulty then they have a duty like every other retailer, and really if its faulty and that fault has caused damage to other equipment then they should be liable for that aswell, and some manufacturers have paid up for incured damages due to faulty equipment.

I haven't said who the supplier is (in this thread, at least) because they may yet do the correct thing, and are otherwise really good, but I fear a protracted battle coming up with them, which is not what I want and really shouldn't be having to have.

I suspect this culture comes from the way the likes of Ripmax and Probuild treat their outlet customers, but that shouldn't mean we just accept it.

Andrew

A lot of it is that a lot of traditional model shops are erm "del boy" operations, unlike shops like Fastlads etc, it seems the smaller the operation the more inclined they are to ignore the sale of goods act unless forced.

Even if they do sort this out, I think a lot of people would like to know who they are, this attitude should not be tolerated and what about the next person who shops there unwittingly?

Its up to you, but if a shop was playing games like this with me, I would name and shame them, even if they do the right thing in the end, there is little incentive to not do it to the nexy guy, if the hobby shops that are breaking their obligations dont suffer any adverse effects then they'll never change.

[Swashbuckler]

No if the goods have been damaged they don't need to replace them foc and that is what Jamie was saying about Horizon. They replace it if you have damaged it, if it is more than a year old or pretty much whatever the circumstance. That is way above and beyond what is required by law.

[EtheAv8r]

.......
What HH do should not be the exception, it should be the norm. Everybody else is breaking the law.

Well no I think you are missing the point here. HH replace and fix and update firmware FOC when there is crash damage, when one has been hamfisted and pulled an aerial off a Rx or satellite, when the item has long past it's warranty period. That exceptional level of Customer service is not mandated by the Law.

[gorber]

Its up to you, but if a shop was playing games like this with me, I would name and shame them, even if they do the right thing in the end, there is little incentive to not do it to the nexy guy, if the hobby shops that are breaking their obligations dont suffer any adverse effects then they'll never change.

I at least need to give them a chance. This was just one phone call and they haven't even got the engine in their posession yet, it is still in transit, so it really would be premature. And like I said, they are otherwise an excellent retailer.

I was really trying to make a more general point about most retailers in this hobby and how it just seems to be accepted.

[jamiem]

Exactly what swashbuckler just said. You missed my point entirely saying that they will repair or replace virtually anything regardless of age and circumstance. As an example, I piled a machine in, destroying the rx (couldn't even find the case), so sent it back with a covering letter saying I'd pay for the repair. It was returned 2 or 3 days later like brand new, no charges, not even for postage.

Sit tight and wait for your engine to return, then rant and rave if they are trying to make you pay up Fingers crossed it doesn't come to that and that it gets resolved amicably.

[Rotorhead]

No if the goods have been damaged they don't need to replace them foc and that is what Jamie was saying about Horizon. They replace it if you have damaged it, if it is more than a year old or pretty much whatever the circumstance. That is way above and beyond what is required by law.

There have been pleanty of manufacturers who view model electronics as consumable items, and that once you take the out of the box then some of them view things like rx's, servos etc as being as good as crashed if there is anything wrong with them.

If a faulty rx causes a crash (likely outcome) then its also likely to suffer damage, but it was still faulty to begin with so even if its damaged in a crash they can still have a responsiblity.

[gorber]

Well no I think you are missing the point here. HH replace and fix and update firmware FOC when there is crash damage, when one has been hamfisted and pulled an aerial off a Rx or satellite, when the item has long past it's warranty period. That exceptional level of Customer service is not mandated by the Law.

Yes, agreed on some of those points, but people do still get excited when all they are doing is rectifying faulty units and the consequences of their failure.

However the sale of goods act does not recognise the time limits of a warranty, it has to last for a reasonable time and, depending on what it is, that could be 6 years.

[J-S-Q]

I piled a machine in, destroying the rx (couldn't even find the case), so sent it back with a covering letter saying I'd pay for the repair. It was returned 2 or 3 days later like brand new, no charges, not even for postage.

I have had exactly the same experience with Horizon on two occasions -old receiver smashed up by myself in a crash and they fixed it for free and sent it back in double quick time. Pretty exceptional service I'd say. Have to agree that most other companies fall miles short of this though.

[raptorheli2]

the sale of goods act is a tricky one with our stuff-mainly because our gadgets are subject to misuse-engines can be run lean/over revved-lipos run flat etc etc.

btw i'm not saying you ran your engine lean!

andy linney is your man with this as he is manager for CAB in glasgow :-)

cheers

[Swashbuckler]

Anyway this thread isn't about Horizon it's more about Probuild and the retailer who is currently nameless. And the how do you prove whether you had a faulty engine or they prove that you are to blame question.