Flybarless: "harder" or "easier" to fly?

[GravityKills]

Hi,

I just noticed something weird, when flying both 450 (FBL) and 250 (FB):
The 250 felt substantially "easier" to handle.
At first glance, this doesn't make any sense - the bigger 450 should be easier because of size and because it doesn't require corrections all the time.

The catch is, the FB 250 has less momentum than the FBL 450:
With the 250, I have to "work" to keep it at speed. The 450, I have to work to keep it from running away. The setup is quite good now, but I remember that it was more "forgiving" in this respect before the conversion.

Might be worth a thought, when planning to convert.

I suspect the reason is drag caused by the flybar: As a thought experiment, if I hold my hand out of the car window at 30 km/h - I guess it has about the same area as the paddle 'disk', I can feel the air resistance quite clearly.

[challis349]

Also I think it will be, because a flybar disturbs the air for the main blades to then go through in order to make a movement, there is a split second in difference between input and movement, as your moving the flybar a certain amount of energy will be lost compared to fbl where everything is going directly to the main blades, maybe a possible reason...

[Rob Barnes]

I find my 550 easier to fly becuase it flybarless, thats why Im converting all my heli,s. It seems more stable and more responsive to inputs but less agressive . Does that make sense ?????

[steve_b]

You may find the flybarred heli easier because the inputs aren't so direct, with the FBL heli the heli will react faster / more to smaller inputs so seems more twitchy, as it doesn't have the flybar to dampen out some of the input.

[Paulice]

IN a hover FBL is easier to fly as the gyro's smooth things out more than "Most" flybars.
at the same time they can be set up more aggressively and have more power than the flybar has, so it's all down to your setup, the 450 FBL should be loads more stable and a lot easier to fly than the 250.

[GravityKills]

no, I don't mean cyclic. That's a completely different topic.
The point here is, a flybar heli has IMO more tendency to slow by itself, thinking solely about airspeed.

[Paulice]

no, I don't mean cyclic. That's a completely different topic.
The point here is, a flybar heli has IMO more tendency to slow by itself, thinking solely about airspeed.

Oh, yeah it will because of the gyroscopic affect the flybar will bring the heli out of forward flight and try to slow it up to a hover, but it will never quite get there.

the FBL system is HH gyros on the cyclic so you set it off into forward flight and the gyros will try to hold it there, thus keeping the speed as best it can.

[moonmanflyer]

Myself and this i my opinion, the reason i prefer the old flybars is that i feel i am not having to force the heli through manovers, i.e. on the fbl i feel it needs to be held all the way through where as flybared helis they seem to flow through manovers, yeh ok you have to adjust the directions more as there is more drift but i don't mind that.
I actually prefered running my old fbl system on a low gain, so it was not so overcommanding, but still preferred it with a flybar

[mattie-lodge]

A well setup FBL machine IMO flies far better than a flybared machine. Now having said you can setup a FBL Heli and make it feel very digital, so then you will be forcing it though moves. This is where the odd feel comes into play.

My 3 V bars on all my heils are setup so to feel like a flybared model (comfortable feel) yet fly dead accurate.

I really am impressed with them big time :

[rachel]

Ok a couple of inputs on this

I flew a Heinslet TDR a couple of weeks ago , V bar 5 , I think wow so locked in and a compleatly "natural" flybared feel but amazing 3D at only 1500 Rpm headspeed , try that with a flybar ?!

I have also just test flown my Vibe 50 Flybarless Total G set up,
again a wonderfull "natural" feeling but when I flip or loop I have none of the screwing out I get with Rexy, my 700 Trex , It's like it self corrects ???

It's early days for me but I would like to go Total G and flybarless on Rexy too.

Hugs XXXXXXXXXX Rachel

[GravityKills]

>> Oh, yeah it will because of the gyroscopic affect the flybar will bring the heli out of forward flight
erm, I think we are just re-inventing flybar physics
The main rotor tends to pitch up. The flybar tends to pitch down. Setup properly, the two mechanisms cancel and the heli flies straight. F3C pilots need to understand this pretty well (flybar mixing ratio).

Don't get me wrong - I love my flybarless helis and they are working great.
But if you give them to someone else to fly who isn't used to it - which I do occasionally - the response is that they are darn difficult to fly, because they'll get very fast, and rather soon, if you let them.

[mattie-lodge]

The thing is with an adaptable FBL unit you can build the stability back into if you like. The problem with flybars is there accuracys are affected by external source (wind and speed of the model). FBL helps this problem out no end. The F3C boys will know about this as they adjust they flybars and ratios for different conditions.

Would I recommend a FBL to a first time Heli pilot. Probably not ATM because they are far more likely to be set up incorrectly and could become dangerous in the wrong hands with out even trying.

[Planehazza]

Why don't you drill holes all over the FBL model to shed weight and it will stop quicker?

Only kidding mate

[Tim Procter]

A well setup FBL machine IMO flies far better than a flybared machine. Now having said you can setup a FBL Heli and make it feel very digital, so then you will be forcing it though moves. This is where the odd feel comes into play.

My 3 V bars on all my heils are setup so to feel like a flybared model (comfortable feel) yet fly dead accurate.

I really am impressed with them big time :

My thoughts entirely.

Saves me a lot of typing.

[jamiem]

The thing I noticed on my FBL 450 is that indoors it is awesome, so accurate, so much more power, it's just nuts. I did however find that outdoors it felt like the servos were struggling in terms of speed and outright holding power, meaning that when I was flying it pretty hard in a strong wind, I would get an odd movement every now and again, which would almost instantly correct itself. Ive now got a set of MKS DS95's to fit, which on paper have some nuts specs - 0.05sec and 3.05kg of torque. These should help no end, and hopefully when this weather buggers off, I might get a chance to find out!