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  • Swashplate Timing

    Now we're running up to Xmas and as work quietens down (and before I get too merry..ahem..) I thought I was long overdue a visit back to my setup documents to see what I had promised and failed miserably to give back to the RCHeliAddict community..!

    So far I've covered Throttle & Pitch Curves, Static Tracking and Paddles.. so next up.. Swashplate timing.. or as some of you may have heard it "phasing"...

    First a bit of perhaps "state the obvious"..

    You may (or may not) have noticed that the geometry of everything above the swashplate seems to happen 90 degrees out of phase to the expected control input.

    For example.. if you give forward elevator you would expect the rotor blade to loose pitch above the canopy and gain pitch above the boom.. therefore increasing lift at the back, decreasing it at the front, and causing the nose of the model to pitch down. The same with the paddles.

    However the blades don't move at all here and in fact receive no input from the swashpate at all.. it is only when they are 90 degrees to the swashplate that they move. Therefore the advancing blade will loose pitch 90 degrees before the canopy.

    Why? How? Eh?.. the reason behind all of this is that a helicopter is one huge gyroscope. And for some deep beard scratching mathematical reason things happen 90 degrees out of phase with gyros (and anything else that spins round).

    So now we have that covered all is well and good. If we want to go forwards we need to decrease the blade pitch 90 degrees before hand.

    As with all these things it is great in theory.. but.. never quite so in practice.

    Owing to the rubber dampers in the head allowing the spindle to lead/lag, the slop in links, the flex in flybars, aerodynamics, and much more.. the chances of your helicopter reacting at perfect 90 degree intervals is quite slim.. far more likely to be 87 or 94 degrees..

    So what?

    Well.. a small angle at 2000rpm can make quite a large difference! Have you ever wondered why when you roll your model does a good interpretation of a barrel?.. or when you try to loop you end up coming out of it 45 degrees to when you went in?

    With 90% of the helicopters I've owned (MA, JR, Hirobo, Avant, Kalt, Kyosho) I've always found I need to mix on the transmitter a little down elevator with left aileron and some up elevator with right aileron to get a really straight roll (say 10% mix). Same with elevator to aileron to have a model that loops well.

    What this is doing is changing the swashplate timing.

    On some machines the washout has a "Phase Ring" which you can rotate around the mainshaft to change the angle of the washout (and therefore the entire swashplate inner ring). This has the same effect as the mixing on the transmitter. What you are doing by moving this (or mixing on your transmitter) is sorting out that 2 or 3 degree timing issue in the gyroscopic procession.

    Simply put, by adjusting the mixing, or the washout, you are advancing or retarding the inner ring of the swashplate from the outer. Therefore the inner ring will communicate the control request earlier, or later, than the normal 90 degrees.

    If you don't have a machine with an adjustable washout of sorts then you are going to be reliant on having a transmitter that does support swashplate timing.. or having enough free mixers to do it manually. Remember though it's only ever the equivalent of a few degrees that are needed so your mixers should never really go much above 10%.

    And finally.. if you change your flybar length, paddles, blades, etc.. yes.. you're probably going to have to adjust the swashplate timing slightly too if you want a perfectly accurate machine..

    Hopefully this will be of some use to somebody out there!

    Cheers

    Mark

  • #2
    For someone to spend this amount of time to write an explanation of this magnitude deserves a big thanks. Nice one Mark





    Gyroscopic precession....... I remember studying this when I did my Avionic Licenses. Fascination subject and never believed it till I did it myself. If anyone wants to prove this theory, take your bicycle wheel off your bike, hold it by the hub, spin it as fast as you can then try and roll it left or right!!!!

    Doesn't do what you think it will do.
    Cheers Matt

    sigpic

    www.flpflightteam.co.uk/ http://www.simstick.co.uk/

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks Mark... I understand the reasons of doing this..but have a couple of questions. I can see the benifits if F3C style flying where speed is more constant, so does this apply equally to 3D flying?..for example does the Mix required vary with model flight speed.

      Will there be a difference in FFF against a Stationary rolls?

      Is the imbalance being caused by the Advancing/retarding blades reduced lift

      Also my understanding, (very limited in this stuff I admit) Is a helicopter barrel rolls because it actually rotates through the Spindle rather than the fuzz and the weight is not equally distributed each side of the spindle causing it to barrel.

      I myself have never used mixes on heli's as my experience with Planks was it hurts the flight performance else where, hence why I've avoided them..

      thanks Brian


      SPARTANRC Team pilot


      sigpic[IMG]http://www.rcheliaddict.co.uk/





      Comment


      • #4
        Like all things on the helicopter you may well chose to fly round the problems and make the heli fly straight using acquired skill.
        To eliminate the issues it is best to get the system as accurate as possible mechanically before resorting to electronic means of correction.
        On my 600n I adjusted the phasing by moving the anti rotation post slightly to one side. This made a great improvement but I am amazed how small the correcion had to be and it currently goes slightly the other way...

        If using a mix on the cyclics to correct phasing then take note that it will only be correct at one value of exponential on the cyclics, and also particularly with a ccpm heli you will end up wih a phase angle that varies with collective.
        www.heli-extreme.co.uk a good club in south Sheffield
        600n pro BeastX Align DFC head bls251, 3xbls451, align gov, 600d, 2in1
        trex500, BeastX DS510 swash, Beast X cutr and carve head DS520 HK3026-1900, Align 425D blades, 5S4200 rev'trix, K&BDD dampers, AR6200
        "450" superframeSTK, align DFC head v2tail, hk22281-8 on 3S 9650w9257gear commander 55A align 325D hitec digitals Tarot ZYX, AR6100e
        MCPX kbdd tail and blades, miniaviation bats

        Dont spend more flying models than it costs to fly for real

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks Mark, excellent information


          Originally posted by moyesboy View Post
          On my 600n I adjusted the phasing by moving the anti rotation post slightly to one side.
          how did you do this mine are set so the only way would be to bend them at first look??
          All the best
          Tony.
          Thunder Tiger E700 - Align 700N - Fusion 50 - Align 600N


          Comment


          • #6
            Brian,

            It applies equally well to 3D.. perhaps even more so.

            Swashplate timing, ergo gyroscopic precesion, is mainly a mechanical phenomenon (to my understanding) and therefore the aerodynamics of FFF will have little effect on it.

            For example if you were to do a forward flip infront of yourself you would want the model to end up hovering inverted if you only gave forward cyclic. However 9 out of 10 times you'll probably find the model careering off down the patch to either your left or right. Now you may choose to learn to cope with this.. but ultimately it's not right and you're just making life hard for yourself.

            I set mine up by doing FFF rolls as it shows up the slightest error that may not be seen elsewhere. As I set mine up mechancially it means the correction is there no matter what the headspeed so it improves the hovering too.

            Cheers

            Mark

            Comment


            • #7
              Brian,

              Regarding the barrel roll.. yes you are correct to an extent.. however at the F3C events most of the machines appear to be rolling down the tail boom. When I used the term barrel roll it was more to suggest a mixing of aileron and elevator meaning that the nose went in a spiral around the roll rather than a straight rotation.

              This isn't a mix that should hurt anything else as it is simply making the model 90 degree "pure".. no more no less.. and as I said it should be a very small percentage, especially if you are doing it mechanically. For example on my Aurora I needed about 2 degrees on the washout.. which is tiny.. but it made a huge difference to the way the model flew.

              Cheers

              Mark

              Comment


              • #8
                To adjust the phasing on my 600n on the anti rotation post I trimmed a little off the face that takes the screw and rests against the inside of the frame, then on the other side I added washers to compensate.
                This of course makes a very minor change to the angles of the servo to swash linkages so the interaction corrections with the bubble level on the paddles should be rechecked...

                I think sim practice where the helis all fly a little too perfectly makes us more picky with our real models. The guys who started flying 3D with no sim are probably laughing at us as they fly there models instictively correcting everything on the sticks.
                www.heli-extreme.co.uk a good club in south Sheffield
                600n pro BeastX Align DFC head bls251, 3xbls451, align gov, 600d, 2in1
                trex500, BeastX DS510 swash, Beast X cutr and carve head DS520 HK3026-1900, Align 425D blades, 5S4200 rev'trix, K&BDD dampers, AR6200
                "450" superframeSTK, align DFC head v2tail, hk22281-8 on 3S 9650w9257gear commander 55A align 325D hitec digitals Tarot ZYX, AR6100e
                MCPX kbdd tail and blades, miniaviation bats

                Dont spend more flying models than it costs to fly for real

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by moyesboy View Post
                  To adjust the phasing on my 600n on the anti rotation post I trimmed a little off the face that takes the screw and rests against the inside of the frame, then on the other side I added washers to compensate.
                  gonna make it a little more difficult for me to change as ive upgraded to the other elevator linkage style, but Ill have a look at it.
                  All the best
                  Tony.
                  Thunder Tiger E700 - Align 700N - Fusion 50 - Align 600N


                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Mark,

                    Thanks, I'm building a Raptor 90 and it mentioned the phase ring, saved me posting to ask what it was all about!

                    One question though, how do you determine which way to go, ie, advance or retard?
                    regards

                    Pip

                    Hey, where d'you learn to fly? I saw you shoot your rocket
                    up.............. into the sky.

                    Hey, I heard you set the pace, I never thought I'd see you back................ in this old place!

                    - Roisin Murphy, Tell Everybody.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      gonna make it a little more difficult for me to change as ive upgraded to the other elevator linkage style, but Ill have a look at it.
                      Tony it will be easier with the A arm..as your only moving it a small amount


                      SPARTANRC Team pilot


                      sigpic[IMG]http://www.rcheliaddict.co.uk/





                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Pip,

                        Generally which way to go is trial and error.. obviously one way will make matters worse.. the other better.

                        However..

                        On every single clockwise rotation machine I've owned or flown the machine has needed down elevator with left aileron. This means rotating the washout anti-clockwise (when looked from above).. but remember only 1 or 2 degrees is all that should be needed.

                        Cheers

                        Mark

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          superb post mark and altough i have far less setup knowledge with mechanics than your good self i have been playing/doing battle with the swash on my rex 700 for a while now.

                          i have spent a long time mixing out interaction using a bubble tool on the swash and flying it and the difference spending the time doing this is certainly worthwhile. the difference in the air is night and day to say the least.

                          for the record i use a 14mz so i can easily mix all this out with a lot of different options but a simple dx6/7 will also yield similar results altough not in as much finesse. i found that when you put in elev for example there is a little ail interaction and the same applies with any movement. something somewhere WILL be out so imo it is worth fixing.

                          cheers

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            On the 600 elevator linkage upgrade it would have been simple to provide phase adjutment by allowing a range of position for the belcrank along the pivot shaft. I suspect for ease of assembly, or for safety if it came a bit loose, they made a fixed position somehow. I've not seen the parts.
                            www.heli-extreme.co.uk a good club in south Sheffield
                            600n pro BeastX Align DFC head bls251, 3xbls451, align gov, 600d, 2in1
                            trex500, BeastX DS510 swash, Beast X cutr and carve head DS520 HK3026-1900, Align 425D blades, 5S4200 rev'trix, K&BDD dampers, AR6200
                            "450" superframeSTK, align DFC head v2tail, hk22281-8 on 3S 9650w9257gear commander 55A align 325D hitec digitals Tarot ZYX, AR6100e
                            MCPX kbdd tail and blades, miniaviation bats

                            Dont spend more flying models than it costs to fly for real

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              On the 700 the shaft has a groove machined around it which is quite wide, this gives enough range of movement with the grub screw still inside the groove, I'm assuming the 600 is the same.

                              I took a slightly different tack with my 700 and fitted a Cyclock, took a bit of work to get it set up but now its spot on. I flew my 600 for the first time a couple of weeks ago after leaving it in the shed for a few months, I noticed how bad it actually is! I now need a second Cyclock on this.
                              Steve H

                              http://www.himbletonRChelicopters.co.uk
                              Trex 600N, Trex 700N, now 3G!, Raptor E550 now in fetching Hughes 500E, Trex 250, Trex 500CF, Trex 550E 3G, Beam E4, Outrage 550, Logo 500 3D.

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